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 The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace

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ron_evartt
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PostSubject: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 12, 2018 7:18 am

Yeshua cleanses us from “Past” sins when we make Him our Savior!


Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the
forbearance of God;
G4266   “PAST
From G4253 and G1096; to be already, that is, have previously transpired: - be past. (Not present, and future)
Rom 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just,
and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:
but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds
of the law.
Rom 3:29  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of
the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and
uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.  (“LIVE THE LAW WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS”!)
Where is “The Law” established? In our hearts! Rom 2:15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
Ezr 7:10  For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Job 22:22  Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
Psa 37:31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 119:34  Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Pro 3:1  My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
 
Rom. 3:28 Explained: “Justified by FAITH (Moral Conviction)”… Walking and
living in Spirit and Truth! OBEDIENT to God’s Laws and Commands…!
Sin is Sin! Sin is disobedience to God’s Law’s, which is “missing the mark”.
SIN Separates Us From God!
FAITH (Moral Conviction)
G4102  “FAITH
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ (The WORD) for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Tit 1:15  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and
unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work (God’s Law) reprobate.
Joh 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever
committeth sin is the servant of sin. (Whose “Servant”   are you?)
Joh 8:35  And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides
ever.
Joh 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37  I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Isaiah 59:2 2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. (Has God changed?)
1Pe 3:12  For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
God’s Word says:
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love (How do we LOVE GOD and OTHERS? The Law):
What would Yeshua say to sinners?
Joh 5:14  Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.  
Joh 8:11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
The “LAW” is only applied to sinners!
The “Righteous” the Law does not apply, because they “SIN NOT”!
The “Law” has never been done away with! It was man’s doctrine that did away with the Law!  Doctrine’s of demons.
What is supposed to be in the heart of a believer? “The Law”!
Why would God “write the Law on our hearts” if the Law no longer exists?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EXAMPLES: (From Psalm 119 Ministries, an online Bible Study)
If the Law is “PERFECT” (Psalms 19:7), then how is perfection made better?
If the “Law” of God is “FREEDOM/LIBERTY” (Psalm 119:44-45), then how can law/liberty be bondage?
If the “Law” is “TRUE & FOREVER” (Psalm 119:43), then how long is forever?
If the “Law” is in the heart of the “RIGHTEOUS” (Is. 51:7, Ps. 119:42, Deut. 4:8, II Pet. 2:21, I Tim. 3:16), then whose hearts is God talking about?
If the “Law” is the “WAY” (Ps. 119:1, Ex. 18:20, Deut. 10:12, Josh. 22:51, I Kings 2:3, Prov. 6:23, Is. 2:3, Mal. 2:8, Mark 12:14, Acts 24:14), then can the “WAY” become a different “WAY”?
Sabbath is forever (Lev. 16:31), Covenant is forever (I Chron. 16:15), The Law is forever (Ps. 119:160), The Word is forever (Is. 40:8)
So when did forever become temporary?
If God’s Word is God (Jn. 1:1-2), and His Word is forever, how can we say His Word “CHANGED”? (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8)
If the “Law” has been done away with, then why are we to “DELIGHT” in the Law? (Ps. 1:2, Ps. 110:70, 77, 92, 174) Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
If we are to walk in God’s Law (Deut. 10:11-13), and we are to walk as Yeshua walked (Jn. 2:5-6), and Paul wrote in many places to “FOLLOW” the examples of Yeshua , then who has told us to walk differently?
If the “Law of God” is how we are to love others (Matt. 22:35-37), then has how to love God and others changed?
If the “Law of God” is to bless us and is good for us (Deut. 11:26-27, Ps. 112:1-2, Ps. 128:1, Prov. 8:32, Is. 56:2, Matt. 5:6 & 10, Lk. 11:28, James 1:25, I Pet. 3:14, Rev. 22:14, Ps. 119), then why would God take it away from us?
If “Keeping the Commandments of God” is the “WHOLE DUTY OF MAN” (ECCL. 12:13), then is this no longer true?
If ALL scripture is “Instruction in RIGHTEOUSNESS” (I Tim. 3:16), and we are to practice “RIGHTEOUSNESS” (I Jn. 2:23, 3:7, 3:10), then why are we NOT to practice ALL scripture?
If the “Law” is done away with, why would Yashua teach: Mat 23:1  Then spoke
Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
 
 
Mat 23:2  Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat (The reading of the Law):
Mat 23:3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.  
Paul taught and practiced what Moses wrote (Acts 21:20, 26, 24:13-14, 25:8). Paul never taught against the “Law”, but clearly wrote those who aren’t sinning can’t be under a law because the “Law” doesn’t apply to those who walk in “RIGHTEOUSNESS”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The “Law” is to condemn sin and sinners (Even after one makes a LIFE COVENANT with God). Otherwise why would we be required to repent?
What happened to those who refused to “REPENT”? TOTAL DESTRUCTION! Therefore there is no “Law” to condemn a “Righteous man”. God’s Word says to be “Perfect as He is Perfect”, and “Go and sin no more”, but if you fall back into sin we have an advocate with the Father, Yeshua the “RIGHTEOUS”. So are we to continue in sin? God FORBIDS!
Paul also taught that there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew or Greek (I Cor. 12:12-14, Gal. 3:27, Col. 3:10-12).
The “LAW” is for the “House of Israel and the Sojourner”. We are grafted in to ONE TREE, THE ONE TREE OF LIFE. There’s not a Gentile Tree and an Israel Tree! There is not a different “WAY” (Yeshua/The Word) from the old to the new. It’s by FAITH! (Obedience to God’s Law)
BORN AGAIN:
BORN AGAIN, or a better translation; BORN FROM ABOVE!
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 
You can’t get to Heaven without being “BORN OF WATER”, and “OF THE SPIRIT”!!! “BORN FROM ABOVE”


 
 
 
So what does this mean? Born from above!
 
“BORN OF WATER” = THE WAY! The Daily Drinking of the Water (Taking in) of the Word of Yahweh! A “Daily Walk” and not a onetime sinner’s prayer!
His Word is a renewing or “rebirth of your mind and ways”. (Rom.12:1-2)
Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present
your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable
service.
Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Why would Paul beg believers to do this if complete “FREE WILL” didn’t exist? We have always had free will! The parables wouldn’t even make sense if we didn’t have complete “free will”! Ex: Prodigal Son, 7 Virgins, 2 Servants…
If God does things different now (N.T.) than in the days of old, He would be a liar and inconsistent, and appear to not be “Perfect”!
 
Jos. 24:15 …choose you this day who you will serve… (Daily Choice)
1Jn 5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one
that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and
keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his
commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the
victory that overcomes the world, even our faith (Moral Conviction).
1Jn 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water (The Word) only, but by water and blood (Forgiveness). And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth (The Law written on our hearts).
 
 
IT’S “A DAILY GROWTH PROCESS”!!! Or “A DAILY DEATH”!!!
 
“BORN OF THE SPIRIT” = THE TRUTH/LAW! 
Which is FAITH = OBEDIENCE TO YAHWEH’S LAWS 

 
The Spirit is the Law written on our hearts (Rom. 2:15), and what Yahweh will write on the hearts of those who study His Word (II Tim. 2:15), and by “Hiding Yahweh’s Laws in their hearts they “Might not sin against Yahweh (Psalm 119:11). THE WAY TO YAHWEH!
TO THEN RECEIVE “THE LIFE”! LIFE ETERNAL!!! (Overcoming Sin)
 
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (WALK OBEDIENT, SIN NOT!)
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 
Absolutely “NOWHERE” does God’s Word approve of SIN or abolish it (A pastor said that it, “No Longer Exists” for Christians). From one who claims to be a follower of Yeshua, and excuse those sins because they once said the “UN-Biblical Sinners Prayer”.  Also knowing we have complete “FREE WILL” to choose every day who we will serve. It’s a “Daily Walk”, and not a onetime prayer. It is continuing to be planted in the Word of God. God’s Word is very clear that “We put ourselves into sin”, and WE must Overcome that sinful nature by the renewing of our minds with the Word of God.
Rom 13:12  The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the
works of darkness, and let “us (YOU) put on the armor of light”.
Rom 13:13  Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not
in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14  But YOU put on the Lord Jesus Christ (The Word/Law), and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.
 
Eph 4:23  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24  And that “you” put on the new man, which after God is created in
righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his
neighbor: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26  Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27  Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28  Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with
his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needs.
Eph 4:29  Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that
which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the
day of redemption (Not “eternally saved”, waiting for that day to see if your name
will be blotted out.  Rev. 3:5).
Eph 4:31  Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking,
be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32  And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 
Eph 6:10  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his
might.
Eph 6:11  Put on (YOU) the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand
Against The wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual
wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take (YOU TAKE) unto you the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his
deeds;
Col 3:10  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:14  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
 
If you study where it talks about becoming a “New Creature” in Yeshua, then you will discover what that truly means.
2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
G2537  “NEW
Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new.
G2937  “CREATURE
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
God creates a place inside of your “Heart” (For His Law), your soul, and mind for Him to dwell with you and you to dwell with Him. It is not a “Total Change” of who you are, but a starting place to have fellowship and understanding, and a vessel for  “…studying to show yourself approved to God…, a place to …hide God’s Word in your heart that you MIGHT not sin against Him…, …to search the scriptures daily so you don’t become deceived… (II Tim. 2:15, Ps. 119:11, Acts 17:11)
One of the biggest misunderstandings is the teaching that Yeshua is our righteousness and we are just sinners incapable of being what God commands, “Perfect as He is Perfect”.
Have you ever heard, “I’m just a sinner saved by Grace”? Wrong!
They don’t understand that “The Word” is Yeshua, and that righteousness comes from putting His Word into that special place God made in us (New Creature). To say we can’t be perfect would make God/God’s Word a liar. Not as man understands perfect, but God’s. The more you fellowship by the input of God’s Word into that “New Creature (Building)”, the more sin won’t reign in your mortal body and by His Word we will learn to walk as He walked, do as He did, and stop being the hypocrite that the world sees in Christianity today. The Sinners Prayer and the Once Saved Always Saved is a new doctrine that’s barely 200 years old. Seek truth and not my words or any man’s word (I Jn. 2:27-29), but rather the Word of God.
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered
Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22  See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith
made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it
was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had
received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Some like to use Eph. 2:8-9, but leave out verse 10.
Eph 2:8  For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus(The Word) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
…GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.
GOOD WORKS =
THE LAW OF GOD (The WAY to LOVE GOD and Others!  (Matt. 22:35-37)
Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not
come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle
shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom
of heaven.
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Which now brings us to GRACE (Sin doesn’t access God’s Grace):
The definition of GRACE is NOT “the unmerited favor of God”. If this were true all would be saved, and good works (Your LOVE for God) wouldn’t exist.
G5485  “GRACE
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life(The Law, good works); including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favor, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
How does one receive GRACE?
Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith(Moral Conviction, obeying God’s
Law), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (The WORD/WAY):
Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith” into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
How are we “Justified”? FAITH
FAITH, which is obedience to God’s Laws, will access HIS GRACE!
Look at Ephesians 2:8-10
Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith (Moral Conviction); and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God (The Word, which is the WAY):
Eph 2:9  Not of works (This is speaking of our works outside of The Word of God.
Not the “GOOD WORKS, GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE
SHOULD WALK IN THEM”), lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (The WORD) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Jas 2:22  See thou how faith wrought with HIS works, and by works was
faith made perfect?
 
NOTE! God can’t break “Covenant” with us, but we DEFINITELY can break “Covenant” with Him, and many have! Can an unrepentant man be in God’s Kingdom?
ALL MUST REPENT, yes even all who claim to believe!
Yeshua:
Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them,
think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
(Perish = “Destroy Fully”)
Can your name be blotted out of the “Book of Life”? YES!
Yeshua: (Requirement for a true believer)
Rev 3:5  He that overcomes (Obedient unto death, as did Yashua), the same shall
be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of
life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 
Only the ones who “Overcome” to the end, who truly gave their lives to the obedience of God’s Word (The WAY) will have everlasting life!
So what happens if you DON’T “Keep His Commandments”?                    What did Jesus say in John 15:10?
Joh 15:10  If  you keep my commandments, you shall abide (STAY) in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide (STAY) in His love.
 
Does God love those who “Don’t Keep His Commandments”? NO!
 
 
G3306  ABIDE  (Jn. 15:10)
A primary verb; “to stay” (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
 
Most of the parables Jesus taught were about believers who by “Free Will” left their first Love and were “Fully Destroyed”! The false doctrines of man don’t teach this!
Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my
presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own
salvation with “fear and trembling”.
Php 2:13  For it is God (The Word) which works in you both to will and to do of
his good pleasure.
Php 2:14  Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15  That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without
rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as
lights in the world;
Php 2:16  Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labord(Worked) in vain.
G5401  FEAR
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.
G5156  “TREMBLING”
From G5141; a “trembling”, that is, quaking with fear: - + tremble (-ing).
FEAR OF GOD = KNOW that God’s Word (Yeshua)
Laws, Commands, Statutes, and Judgments
Are the ONLY WAY!
 
Maybe we should make this our Christian Motto!
1Co 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
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Darrell Conner
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Join date : 2018-05-09

PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Mon May 14, 2018 2:15 pm

@ron_evartt wrote:
Yeshua cleanses us from “Past” sins when we make Him our Savior!



The definition of GRACE is NOT “the unmerited favor of God”. If this were true all would be saved, and good works (Your LOVE for God) wouldn’t exist.


Just a few thoughts in regards to the teaching above, Ron:


Ron wrote:
Yeshua cleanses us from “Past” sins when we make Him our Savior!


Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the
forbearance of God;
G4266   “PAST
From G4253 and G1096; to be already, that is, have previously transpired: - be past. (Not present, and future)
Rom 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just,
and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:
but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds
of the law.
Rom 3:29  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of
the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and
uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.  (“LIVE THE LAW WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS”!)
Where is “The Law” established? In our hearts! Rom 2:15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
Ezr 7:10  For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Job 22:22  Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
Psa 37:31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 119:34  Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Pro 3:1  My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
 
Rom. 3:28 Explained: “Justified by FAITH (Moral Conviction)”… Walking and
living in Spirit and Truth! OBEDIENT to God’s Laws and Commands…!
Sin is Sin! Sin is disobedience to God’s Law’s, which is “missing the mark”.
SIN Separates Us From God!

I see a merging of Old and New Testament economies in your teaching. It is true that we are cleansed of our sin, but, it must be understood that so too...were the Old Testament Saints:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



I will just point out that Paul makes a distinction between the justification of the Old Testament Saint and the justification of the New Covenant believer through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. He uses Abraham as the model to show that justification by faith is not something new, but, just as James shows, we see Abraham was justified by something he did, and this through belief, not in Christ the Risen Savior, but in the Promise God gave concerning the blessings He would bestow through Abraham's seed. Abraham was not trusting in Christ and His Offering of Himself, but simply in the promise God gave him:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.




You say...

Ron wrote:


NOTE! God can’t break “Covenant” with us, but we DEFINITELY can break “Covenant” with Him, and many have! Can an unrepentant man be in God’s Kingdom?


...and I have to say this is an impossibility. You cannot undo something you did not bring about in the first place. We are not saved because we "covenant with God," we are saved because we acknowledge the truth and turn to Christ in faith. This takes place when the Comforter reveals the Gospel to our hearts. And it must be kept in mind that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed during the Age of Law. There is no more an exercise of free will in salvation in Christ than there is for the man who acknowledges the truth that he has cancer. Salvation is a response, and the only free will men will exercise in regards to salvation is that which their nature allows...to reject the truth. If someone snuck up on you in the grocery store, and dumped a gallon of ice water on you, would your response be a result of free will? No, it is generated by the catalyst. So too with our embrace of the truth when the Comforter reveals it to us. We cannot attribute our response to ourselves, we attribute it to God Who has enlightened our minds to the truth of the Gospel.

And it is a good idea to understand that being born again, born from above, and being born of the Spirit are all synonymous terms to describe being born of God, which did not start until Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



And if you will note in verse 13 we are not made sons of God by heritage, the will of the fleh (what we ourselves determine), nor the will of man (what another man determines for us), we are made sons of God because we are born of God.

We keep His Law because we have been born again, which is the result of the eternal indwelling of God, and prmised in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.




Christ is the Author and Finisher (completer) of our faith, and has made us complete in regards to remission of sins, just as He promised He would do in the Old Testament:


Hebrews 10:1; 14-18
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



So the emphasis on "Past" sins is not according to Scripture. Hebrews makes it clear that we have been forgiven on an eternal basis.


Ron wrote:
The definition of GRACE is NOT “the unmerited favor of God”. If this were true all would be saved, and good works (Your LOVE for God) wouldn’t exist.


This is a great definition for grace, because we lose God because He first loved us. The natural man has no love for God, and cannot understand the spiritual things of God. He is dependent on divine intervention, that he might understand the Gospel, and thus be saved.

It isn't free will that causes a man to turn to Christ, it is the Comforter:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;




This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant.

So just a few thoughts, hope you don't mind a little constructive criticism.

;)



God bless.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 12:23 am

RE:
Yeshua cleanses us from “Past” sins when we make Him our Savior! 



The definition of GRACE is NOT “the unmerited favor of God”. If this were true all would be saved, and good works (Your LOVE for God) wouldn’t exist.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You wrote: I see a merging of Old and New Testament economies in your teaching. It is true that we are cleansed of our sin, but, it must be understood that so too...were the Old Testament Saints:


By your own words (without scriptural evidence) you make a distinction between the Old and New Testament. God's Word, which is God (Jn 1:1-2), and HE doesn't change. The God of the "Old" is the same "unchanging" God of the New, but you would have to have an understanding of what a covenant is, and what it is not. Man made the wrong separation of Old and New, NOT God, by your false interpretation of it! Walking upright and obedient to God's Word/Laws has been the evidence of a true follower, Old and New. The New Testament is a small reflection of the Old Testament, and anyone who has studied old and new see the direct correlation between the two. Do yourself a favor and rip out the sections in your Bible separating the Old and the New. It is ALL the Word of Yahweh, and it's all relevant to today! 


What is the "New Covenant"?


Heb 8:1  Now in the things which we are saying the chief point is this: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens (Yeshua), 
Heb 8:2  a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 
Heb 8:3  For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is necessary that this high priest also have somewhat to offer. (The "new Covenant" is a distinction between priests and the only High Priest.)
Heb 8:4  Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law; 
Heb 8:5  who serve that which is a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned of God when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount. 
Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. (No longer a priest to mediate)
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. (Yeshua, the fulfillment of a better covenant)
Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; (Jews and Gentiles alike) 
Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers (Priests, sacrifices, gifts, and the Tabernacle as a building) In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 
Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people: (Showing "no more the need for priests, "Mediators"...)
Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.  (His Word/Law written on our hearts. We now have the written Living Word to put inside our hearts and mind, if we "ABIDE" in His Word, His Word will "Abide" in us!)
Heb 8:12  For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more. (This "ABSOLUTELY" doesn't say sin is alright, and repentance isn't needed.) You and the main stream churches today pervert this scripture verse.) 
Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away. (Keeping this in its context, Hebrews 8 is speaking of men (priests, and sacrifices... and the man made building as a "Tabernacle") as our mediator being the "OLD", and Yeshua being our mediator, and our body as the "Tabernacle" of the "NEW".)


So what is the "New Covenant"? 
A "Daily" personal relationship by where one must die to the flesh/sin with the input of the Word of Yahweh into that special place created by Yahweh to "Tabernacle" with His people! Priests, man made Tabernacles, sacrifices (animals...), gifts have all been done away with. It's giving Him your total being, and being the "Tabernacle", the sacrifice of your life, and obedience as your gift to Yahweh to fellowship with Him, because Yeshua is the fulfillment of the "Old", therefore creating the "New". Other than this NOTHING has changed!!! 


So how is "Sin" no longer remembered? This requires the rest of the story, Yahweh's Word, and is definitely not speaking of when you first gave your life, making a covenant with Yahweh (Re: Sins past, present, and future)! Are we not to live out the "righteousness" of Yahweh in our daily lives? Are we to continue in sin? Yahweh forbids! Are we to "Overcome" to the end of our lives", or have our names blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5, "COVENANT BROKEN"!!!)
1Co 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.



Sin at the time you make a covenant with the Living God is forgiven for your PAST sins and
(Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; ),
therefore you are no longer your own, you belong to Yahweh, showing by baptism your "death to the flesh/sin" and "By Water (The Word) "raised in newness of life! The problem is that you and your doctrines of men have made a "Life long relationship" into a onetime sinners prayer and a completely compromised understanding of Grace, and how Grace is accessed. Will Yahweh forgive All our sins? Yes, IF you continue in righteousness and Truth, repenting when you sin, but you should obey Yeshua and "Go and sin no more".


Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith (Moral Conviction), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 



How do we have PEACE? FAITH!   How do we access GRACE? FAITH!


G5485  “GRACE”
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life(Obedience,The Law, which is the good working of faith); including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favor, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You Wrote: I will just point out that Paul makes a distinction between the justification of the Old Testament Saint and the justification of the New Covenant believer through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. He uses Abraham as the model to show that justification by faith is not something new, but, just as James shows, we see Abraham was justified by something he did, and this through belief, not in Christ the Risen Savior, but in the Promise God gave concerning the blessings He would bestow through Abraham's seed. Abraham was not trusting in Christ and His Offering of Himself, but simply in the promise God gave him:




You, as do most main stream churches today, try and make a separation of The Word and Yeshua! If you would learn to put "The Word" in place of Jesus/Yeshua, you will then learn that Yeshua is the Word and not the man whose flesh was sacrificed on a cross (It was symbolic of what we did as a people! "WE KILLED HIS WORD ON THE CROSS"!!!. Yeshua was the embodiment of Grace and Truth, the Word (Jn 1:14)! You are doing as most do by putting that which is earthly, and that which is Spirit and everlasting into the same category. Yeshua's flesh was temporary and passing away as do all earthly things. We are to live in Spirit and Truth, and not in the things of this world. Yahweh's Word is Spirit, and to be understood and interpreted in the spiritual. The Spirit, which is Yahweh, can't be killed! God's Word was put on the cross, and it's eternal, Old and New!


How are we justified? The same as in the old as in the new! FAITH


Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith(Moral Conviction, obeying God’s
Law), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (The WORD/WAY): 





6 Even as Abraham believed (FAITH, he acted on the Word of Yahweh) God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness (His obedience).

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



I'm not sure how you can not see that it was Abraham's FAITH in Yahweh's "spoken word", and it's the same for us "His Spoken Living Word". Once again you try to separate Yahweh from Yahweh, and it can't be done.


I think part of the problem most have are with the Law given to Moses, and the Law Yahweh will write on our hearts. Even the Laws concerning foods was not about food, it was a mystery, a spiritual response in relation to Yahweh and His people, but one not understood by most Jews or the church today. The law is spiritual, and not physical. It has always been about our spiritual relationship with Yahweh, and nothing physical. That's why we are to die to this physical body. 


You wrote:

 ...and I have to say this is an impossibility. You cannot undo something you did not bring about in the first place. We are not saved because we "covenant with God," we are saved because we acknowledge the truth and turn to Christ in faith. This takes place when the Comforter reveals the Gospel to our hearts. And it must be kept in mind that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed during the Age of Law. There is no more an exercise of free will in salvation in Christ than there is for the man who acknowledges the truth that he has cancer. Salvation is a response, and the only free will men will exercise in regards to salvation is that which their nature allows...to reject the truth. If someone snuck up on you in the grocery store, and dumped a gallon of ice water on you, would your response be a result of free will? No, it is generated by the catalyst. So too with our embrace of the truth when the Comforter reveals it to us. We cannot attribute our response to ourselves, we attribute it to God Who has enlightened our minds to the truth of the Gospel.

And it is a good idea to understand that being born again, born from above, and being born of the Spirit are all synonymous terms to describe being born of God, which did not start until Christ came:

The above is the same as saying: "Yahweh's Word wasn't in the beginning with Yahweh"! (Jn 1:1-2)Wrong!




ALL will be judged by the WORD! How you can say we have nothing to do with making a covenant with Yahweh is absolutely WRONG! Yeshua is the LIGHT given to every man... (Joh 1:9  That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.) Yahweh will be revealed to every person who ever lived, and that's how ALL will be judged by His Word! The Comforter (Holy Spirit) reveals Himself to all, and most reject his offer to die to this body and live for Him. Therefore they made a choice to make or not make a covenant with the living God. To many of your doctrines of men totally contradict the Truth in Yahweh's Word, trying to make it a simple easy thing, and no longer "Working out your salvation with fear and trembling"! I don't think you're as interested in Yahweh's Truth as you are in defending your personal doctrines. 


You wrote: And if you will note in verse 13 we are not made sons of God by heritage, the will of the fleh (what we ourselves determine), nor the will of man (what another man determines for us), we are made sons of God because we are born of God. 

We keep His Law because we have been born again, which is the result of the eternal indwelling of God, and prmised in the Old Testament



(Jn 1:13) 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


11 He came unto his own, and (Many of) his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
"Believe on His name? The "WORD OF YAHWEH"!!! His name "shall be called Emanuel", which interpreted means "GOD WITH US... Who is God? (Jn 1:1-2, 14) THE WORD!
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

(...But of God... So Born of His Blood, Born of His "Will", Born of God "His Spirit"!)



You wrote: Christ is the Author and Finisher (completer) of our faith, and has made us complete in regards to remission of sins, just as He promised He would do in the Old Testament:


The above is "Out of Context"! The above means His Word is complete (Old and New), and IF He abides in us, and IF we abide in Him (Remember, abide means to stay or "Break Covenant") this would mean we are to "BE RIGHTEOUS", ...perfect as He is Perfect..., Holy and blameless... Legalism is Satan's way to say we DON'T need to be as GOD's Word teaches!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From you:
Hebrews 10:1; 14-18 
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


So the emphasis on "Past" sins is not according to Scripture. Hebrews makes it clear that we have been forgiven on an eternal basis.




Again taken out of context! Already covered this. 
-----------------------------------------------------
I will speak to the verses above.


For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 
(This is speaking of priests, animal sacrifices, gifts, and the Tabernacle "Building")



------------------------------------------------------
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

He is speaking of the WORD OF GOD, and those "SANCTIFIED"! How are we sanctified? By FAITH, which is moral conviction, obedience to God's Laws because you Love Him.
-----------------------------------------------------
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.



You must not have read the entire lesson or you would know the answers, "by God's Word", I have already given.


OLD TESTAMENT:
Ezr 7:10  For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Job 22:22  Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
Psa 37:31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide
Psa 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
 
Psa 119:34  Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Pro 3:1  My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:



A HEART is what produces GOOD or EVIL! 
Mat 12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 



Old and New are the same!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


You wrote: It isn't free will that causes a man to turn to Christ, it is the Comforter:


A TOTAL CONTRADICTION TO GOD'S WORD!!!
Well than I suppose by what you believe (Without Scriptural references) would mean God's Spirit (Yeshua/The Word)
is weak, and I guess applies to only those who aren't deaf! What I mean without the sarcasm is that God's Spirit has spoken to all, and all will be judged by the WORD! This also was already covered in this lesson. With what you believe I would assume everyone the Holy Spirit has spoken to has been "Born Again"? I also assume when God's Word says to; "Choose you this day who you will serve" is incorrect? Every day is a choice and a decision to follow in obedience to the Word.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: GRACE
You wrote: This is a great definition for grace, because we lose God because He first loved us. The natural man has no love for God, and cannot understand the spiritual things of God. He is dependent on divine intervention, that he might understand the Gospel, and thus be saved. 


GRACE is not "The unmerited favor of God"! This implies we do NOTHING! A LIE!
Very Good! This proves we have FREE WILL, and whether or not to choose to follow the Word!
We choose to accept Him, we choose to put on His armor, we choose to follow daily, we choose to sin or defeat it with the Living Word, God doesn't make robots, nor does God put us in sin, and that's why it's REQUIRED that we PUT ON THE WORD to be perfect as He is perfect, Holy and blameless. GRACE is the benefits of God WHEN WE ARE FAITHFUL (Moral Conviction = Doing what is right or righteous!) SIN can't access God's Grace! 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


You wrote: This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant. 


John 16:7-9 
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;



This is because THE WORD/YESHUA was here on earth! He had to ascend so He/The Spirit could be heard to all!
What this doesn't say, "This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant."
This is not the "Spirit of Grace"!


Stop with the "Doctrines of men"! Become like that of a Berean! Study the Word and seek Truth! Trust no man, for all men are liars! Don't believe me, BELIEVE THE WORD!!!
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 8:44 am

Ron wrote:
RE:
Yeshua cleanses us from “Past” sins when we make Him our Savior! 



The definition of GRACE is NOT “the unmerited favor of God”. If this were true all would be saved, and good works (Your LOVE for God) wouldn’t exist.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You wrote: I see a merging of Old and New Testament economies in your teaching. It is true that we are cleansed of our sin, but, it must be understood that so too...were the Old Testament Saints:


By your own words (without scriptural evidence) you make a distinction between the Old and New Testament.

I did, that was one of the points I made. You have further illustrated the merging of what is New with that which is Old, and obsolete.


Ron wrote:

God's Word, which is God (Jn 1:1-2), and HE doesn't change. The God of the "Old" is the same "unchanging" God of the New, but you would have to have an understanding of what a covenant is, and what it is not. Man made the wrong separation of Old and New, NOT God, by your false interpretation of it!


So you think, despite Paul's many teachings, that men are still under the Covenant of Law?

God is the same God throughout history, however, men did not understand God as we do. They did not have the revelation we have been provided with.


Ron wrote:

Walking upright and obedient to God's Word/Laws has been the evidence of a true follower, Old and New. The New Testament is a small reflection of the Old Testament, and anyone who has studied old and new see the direct correlation between the two.

The New Testament is a small reflection of the Old Testament?

That is why you do not seem to understand Salvation by grace through faith. What you are preaching is salvation by faith through grace, which is in error.

Much has been revealed to men in the New Testament which was not made known in past Ages (which includes the Age of Law).

Let's take a look at some people in the Age of Law who did not believe on Christ as the Risen Savior:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



Because you do not understand the magnitude of the Cross, and what Christ has accomplished for man, you do not understand the distinction between men being under the Covenant of Law...and the New Covenant.

We are ministers of the New Covenant, whereas you are trying to minister the Law to men.

The Gospel of Christ, though spoken of in Prophecy, was not revealed to men prior to the coming of the Promised Spirit. Here you can see that not even the Disciples of Christ understood the Gospel, and it is because the revelation was not given them:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.



Ron wrote:

Do yourself a favor and rip out the sections in your Bible separating the Old and the New. It is ALL the Word of Yahweh, and it's all relevant to today!

If it is "all the Word of God," why...are you advising people to rip out parts of it?

That is preciselyt why you teach a works-based salvation which is another gospel, and not the Gospel of Christ...

...because you do not have a balanced understanding of the Word of God.



Quote :
What is the "New Covenant"?


Heb 8:1  Now in the things which we are saying the chief point is this: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens (Yeshua), 
Heb 8:2  a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 
Heb 8:3  For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is necessary that this high priest also have somewhat to offer. (The "new Covenant" is a distinction between priests and the only High Priest.)

Sorry, no. The New Covenant is a Covenant established by God just as the Covenant of Law was. It was promised in the Old Testament and established on the Offering of Christ, and formalized when the Spirit of God was sent on Pentecost.

It was then that men began to be reconciled to God, and what you need to understand is that no man was reconciled prior to this.

It began when the Spirit came and men were Baptized with the Holy Ghost. This is synonymous with being immersed into God in eternal union, and being baptized into Christ.

Perhaps if you had not ignored the Scripture provided you in the last post we would be discussing those instead of hearing a works-based salvation preaching to people what they must do to be saved.




Quote :

Heb 8:4  Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law; 
Heb 8:5  who serve that which is a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned of God when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount. 
Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. (No longer a priest to mediate)
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. (Yeshua, the fulfillment of a better covenant)
Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; (Jews and Gentiles alike) 
Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers (Priests, sacrifices, gifts, and the Tabernacle as a building) In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 
Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people: (Showing "no more the need for priests, "Mediators"...)

Note that the New Covenant is "not according to the covenant God made with their fathers." It has nothing to do with Priests (we are all priests under New Covenant conditions), sacrifices (only Christ's sacrifice matters in a salvific context), or gifts (we distinguish between the gifts given to those who are saved and the Gift).

I do agree that the Tabernacle/Temple of the New Covenant is the Body of Christ, because He now resides in us.



Quote :
Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.  (His Word/Law written on our hearts. We now have the written Living Word to put inside our hearts and mind, if we "ABIDE" in His Word, His Word will "Abide" in us!)

You seem to have missed the fact that the disciples of Christ...did not abide in Christ after being commanded to:


John 16:29-32
King James Version (KJV)

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.



What the Lord is doing is contrasting Himself (The True Vine) with the vine that is not the true vine, which is Israel, and by extension the Covenant of Law. That was the provision God gave them in the Old Testament. Just like He contrasts Himself with manna and is the True Bread.

The Disciples are given a command they are not capable of keeping...yet. Just as they could not be born again yet, just as they could not believe in Christ as the Risen Savior...yet.



Quote :
Heb 8:12  For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more. (This "ABSOLUTELY" doesn't say sin is alright, and repentance isn't needed.)

Repentance is an inevitable result that occurs when the Comforter reveals the truth of their condition to them. It is generated by the efforts of God, not the efforts of men.

Please read this passage again:


[size=24]John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



(The coding is acting a little wierd so I apologize in advance if this is too large)

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Quote :

[size=18] You and the main stream churches today pervert this scripture verse.) [/size]

Quite the assumption.

I will again give you the Writer's conclusion concerning 8:12...


Hebrews 10:14-18
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


It is you that perverts the teaching, my friend. The reason there is no more offering for sin is because we have been made complete in regards to remission of sins...on an eternal basis.

You teach another gospel, one in which the Sacrifice of Christ can only forgive past sins.



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[size=18]Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away. (Keeping this in its context, Hebrews 8 is speaking of men (priests, and sacrifices... and the man made building as a "Tabernacle") as our mediator being the "OLD", and Yeshua being our mediator, and our body as the "Tabernacle" of the "NEW".)[/size]

Keeping it in context we see that the Covenant of Law is made obsolete.

The Covenant of Law and it's elements were not the mediator, lol, it was the Covenant itself.

Hear the Word of God:


[size=16]Hebrews 12:18, 22-24
King James Version (KJV)

[/size]
[size=16]18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



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So what is the "New Covenant"? 
A "Daily" personal relationship by where one must die to the flesh/sin with the input of the Word of Yahweh into that special place created by Yahweh to "Tabernacle" with His people!

Sorry, no. The New Covenant is the provision God has given men in order that they might be in relationship with Him.

The Covenant of Law was the means provided during the Age of Law.

You need to learn not to merge the two, and in doing so learn to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



Quote :

[size=18][size=18] Priests, man made Tabernacles, sacrifices (animals...), gifts have all been done away with. It's giving Him your total being, and being the "Tabernacle", the sacrifice of your life, and obedience as your gift to Yahweh to fellowship with Him,[/size][/size]

Sorry, no. You teach religion, what men must do to come to God.

The Bible teache what God did to come to man. That is why He is called God with us.



Quote :

 because Yeshua is the fulfillment of the "Old", therefore creating the "New". Other than this NOTHING has changed!!!
[size=18]
Everything has changed.


[/size]
Quote :

[size=18][size=18]So how is "Sin" no longer remembered? This requires the rest of the story, Yahweh's Word, and is definitely not speaking of when you first gave your life, making a covenant with Yahweh (Re: Sins past, present, and future)! Are we not to live out the "righteousness" of Yahweh in our daily lives? Are we to continue in sin? Yahweh forbids! [/size][/size]

[size=18]Again you have men giving their lives.

The Gospel of Christ is about Christ giving His life...in our stead

[/size]
Quote :

[size=18][size=18]Are we to "Overcome" to the end of our lives", or have our names blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5, "COVENANT BROKEN"!!!)[/size][/size]

This...


Revelation 3:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



...teaches that those who overcome will never be blotted out of the Book of Life.

It is a call to salvation itself:


Revelation 3:20-21
King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.



Those who have not overcome are they which still need the indwelling of Christ.

This is how men overcome:


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?





Quote :

[size=18][size=18]1Co 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.[/size][/size]

It is true, we are to live holy, because He is Holy.

However, that has nothing to do with how men are saved.

Those who commit unrepentant sin can lose their physical lives, as Annanias and Sapphira, and those who were partaking of Communion unworthily, but our immersion into God in eternal union is just that...

...eternal.

That is why Christ spoke of everlasting life, not the chance for everlasting life as you teach.

And the fact is...no man had this Life prior to Christ dying, rising again, returning to Heaven, and sending the Conforter that He might indwell them forever:



John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.





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Sin at the time you make a covenant with the Living God is forgiven for your PAST sins and
(Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; ),
[size=18]
We don't make a covenant with God, He is the Mediator. You have your roles reversed.

[/size]

Quote :
therefore you are no longer your own, you belong to Yahweh, showing by baptism your "death to the flesh/sin" and "By Water (The Word) "raised in newness of life!
[size=18]
So you have never sinned since you have been saved?

The Good News is...Christ died for that sin as well.

He died for your sin of wresting His Word as well.

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The problem is that you and your doctrines of men have made a "Life long relationship" into a onetime sinners prayer and a completely compromised understanding of Grace, and how Grace is accessed.

It's humorous that you, who teach men must be religious, accuse me of a complromised understanding of grace.

 
Quote :
Will Yahweh forgive All our sins? Yes, IF you continue in righteousness and Truth, repenting when you sin, but you should obey Yeshua and "Go and sin no more".
[size=18]
So God will forgive sin if we behave?

Sorry, remission of sins is based on blood (death), and it is through the Blood of Christ that men are forgiven their sins and reconciled to God.

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Quote :
Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith (Moral Conviction), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 



How do we have PEACE? FAITH!   How do we access GRACE? FAITH!
[size=18]
REad the first verse again. You think you are accomplisheng the grace of God, whereas the Word of God make it clear we are justified through Christ and have access to to grace through faith...through Him.

Not you.

Romans 3:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


The redemption of the sins that are past speak, not of the past sins of the individual, but the sins of the Old Testament Saint that had not yet been redeemed:


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The "First Testament" refers to the Covenant of Law.

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G5485  “GRACE”
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life(Obedience,The Law, which is the good working of faith); including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favor, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
[size=18]
You need to come to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel speaks of what God in Christ did, not what men do.


God bless.
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Darrell Conner
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 11:13 am

Ron wrote:

You Wrote: I will just point out that Paul makes a distinction between the justification of the Old Testament Saint and the justification of the New Covenant believer through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. He uses Abraham as the model to show that justification by faith is not something new, but, just as James shows, we see Abraham was justified by something he did, and this through belief, not in Christ the Risen Savior, but in the Promise God gave concerning the blessings He would bestow through Abraham's seed. Abraham was not trusting in Christ and His Offering of Himself, but simply in the promise God gave him:




You, as do most main stream churches today, try and make a separation of The Word and Yeshua!

The statement doesn't even deal with Christ being the Word (which I have never once denied)...it deals with the Old Testament Saint and the New Testament Saint. It deals with the difference between being justified based on what we do, and being justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Because you do not understand this you teach another gospel, a works-based salvation which is heresy.

If you cannot properly examine and contextualize a simple statement like this, perhaps you should give thought to trying to be a Teacher of the Word of God, for there is a higher degree of judgment for those who are.



Quote :
If you would learn to put "The Word" in place of Jesus/Yeshua, you will then learn that Yeshua is the Word and not the man whose flesh was sacrificed on a cross

The problem you are having is identifying a statement about the Son of God (Who is Eternal God, the Creator) and the Christ, Who was born of a virgin roughly 2,000 years ago. That flesh God created in the womb of Mary did not exist prior to the time that body was created.

That you would make a statement that essentially says "The Word did not die on the Cross" shows your ignorance of the Word of God:

John 1:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Secondly, you essentially separate Jesus and "the man that died on the Cross," which is heresy.

I don't know what group you are associated with but this does not represent Christian Doctrine. The Word is God, and God manifest in flesh, and He died on the Cross to make atonement for the sins of men. He resides to this day in that flesh that was created in the womb of Mary.



Quote :
(It was symbolic of what we did as a people! "WE KILLED HIS WORD ON THE CROSS"!!!. Yeshua was the embodiment of Grace and Truth, the Word (Jn 1:14)!

Again with the "we." Your relision is very humanistic.

To say that the Cross was symbolic shows ignorance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



Quote :
You are doing as most do by putting that which is earthly, and that which is Spirit and everlasting into the same category. Yeshua's flesh was temporary and passing away as do all earthly things.

On the contrary, I am the one making the point that we do not merge that which is physical (which the Old Testament primarily is) and that which is spiritual (the revelation of the New Testament).

And just so you know, Christ's flesh was not temporary, He died in that flesh, and was raised in glorified form...in that same flesh:


Acts 1:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.





Quote :
We are to live in Spirit and Truth, and not in the things of this world. Yahweh's Word is Spirit, and to be understood and interpreted in the spiritual. The Spirit, which is Yahweh, can't be killed! God's Word was put on the cross, and it's eternal, Old and New!

You think it's spiritual to say "Yeshua is the Word and not the man whose flesh was sacrificed on a cross?"

This is absolutely absurd.



Quote :
How are we justified? The same as in the old as in the new! FAITH


Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith(Moral Conviction, obeying God’s
Law), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (The WORD/WAY):

No, not the same as in the Old Testament, as explained.The one thing I would stress to you in this verse is that now we have peace with God through Jesus Christ.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and that is how we are born again:



2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.





Quote :
6 Even as Abraham believed (FAITH, he acted on the Word of Yahweh) God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness (His obedience).

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



I'm not sure how you can not see that it was Abraham's FAITH in Yahweh's "spoken word", and it's the same for us "His Spoken Living Word". Once again you try to separate Yahweh from Yahweh, and it can't be done.

You are missing my point: yes Abraham believed the Word of God, but...it was not the revealed Gospel of Christ he was believing. And he was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would give him a son through whom all nations of the earth would be blessed.

Note v.8: the Gospel preached to Abraham was "In thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

It was not Jesus Christ has died in your stead to make atonement for your sin so you can be reconciled to God and receive the eternal indwelling which is the life Christ came to bring to mankind.

That is how all nations of the earth have been blessed, and it is the Mystery that was not revealed to men in past Ages:


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


There was no "one man in Christ" prior to the sending of the Promised Spirit. There was no Church, the Body of Christ prior to men receiving Atonement, Reconciliation, and Eternal indwelling through which we have Eternal Life.



Quote :
I think part of the problem most have are with the Law given to Moses, and the Law Yahweh will write on our hearts. Even the Laws concerning foods was not about food, it was a mystery, a spiritual response in relation to Yahweh and His people, but one not understood by most Jews or the church today. The law is spiritual, and not physical. It has always been about our spiritual relationship with Yahweh, and nothing physical. That's why we are to die to this physical body.

The Law was not a mystery. The laws were not a mystery. They were instructions for the people of God, and not given to the world in general.

You are the one without understanding, my friend.



Quote :
You wrote:

 ...and I have to say this is an impossibility. You cannot undo something you did not bring about in the first place. We are not saved because we "covenant with God," we are saved because we acknowledge the truth and turn to Christ in faith. This takes place when the Comforter reveals the Gospel to our hearts. And it must be kept in mind that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed during the Age of Law. There is no more an exercise of free will in salvation in Christ than there is for the man who acknowledges the truth that he has cancer. Salvation is a response, and the only free will men will exercise in regards to salvation is that which their nature allows...to reject the truth. If someone snuck up on you in the grocery store, and dumped a gallon of ice water on you, would your response be a result of free will? No, it is generated by the catalyst. So too with our embrace of the truth when the Comforter reveals it to us. We cannot attribute our response to ourselves, we attribute it to God Who has enlightened our minds to the truth of the Gospel.

And it is a good idea to understand that being born again, born from above, and being born of the Spirit are all synonymous terms to describe being born of God, which did not start until Christ came:

The above is the same as saying: "Yahweh's Word wasn't in the beginning with Yahweh"! (Jn 1:1-2)Wrong!

I have absolutely no clue how you arrive at this conclusion.

It is a very simple statement. Read it again, maybe this time you will understand what is being said.



Quote :
ALL will be judged by the WORD!

Sorry, no. Those in this Age who do not hear the Gospel and receive Atonement, Reconciliation, and Eternal Life through the eternal indwelling of God will be judged according to their words and deeds, and the statndard will be the Law, which holds the principles of the will of God for man.

Born again believers will not be judged according to the Law, because our sin has been judged in the Person of Christ.

[size=24]Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:




John 5:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



2 Corinthians 3:5-8
King James Version (KJV)

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?



Again we see the distinction drawn between the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant, of which you teach "Nothing has changed."


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Quote :

How you can say we have nothing to do with making a covenant with Yahweh is absolutely WRONG!

I don't say it...the Word of God says it, and this quite clearly:



Galatians 3:17-20
King James Version (KJV)

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.




You need to understand that the blessings of God have always first been promised by God, and fulfilled...by God.

Not man.

You were not there when God determined to save you through Christ. And you had no knowledge of your condition or the Remedy...until God enlightened you to it. And just as I explained in the statement above, which you did not understand, if you have been saved it was because GOd first loved you, not because of something you did. You, nor I, had any sacrifice that we could bring before God to bring about reconciliation.



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Yeshua is the LIGHT given to every man... (Joh 1:9  That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.)

No, Ron, Jesus is the Man God became in order to die. The Word, the Son of God...is eternal. Jesus the Christ has a beginning in time:

 Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



Men did not become sons of God prior to their receiving Atonement, Reconciliation, and the eternal indwelling of God. Just as it states here:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


In view is the Incarnation, and that is when were given the power to become the sons of God. And as it states above, it is when God sent forth His Son that that we received the adoption of sons and the Spirit of God.



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Yahweh will be revealed to every person who ever lived, and that's how ALL will be judged by His Word!

He has not been revealed to every man that has ever lived as Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God. It is true all will be judged by Christ, but, those who died under Law will be judged according to their response to the Law written on their hearts, which is completely different from those of us who have had our sins judged in Christ on the Cross.


Quote :
The Comforter (Holy Spirit) reveals Himself to all,

No, Ron, He reveals Christ to men, and this...only in this Age after He has come:


John 16:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.



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The Comforter (Holy Spirit) reveals Himself to all, and most reject his offer to die to this body and live for Him.


Again...works-based doctrine.

The Gospel is not "Die to your body and live for Him and you shall have eternal life," it is...


1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:






Quote :

Therefore they made a choice to make or not make a covenant with the living God.

What twaddle. What they did was believe the truth that was given them, namely...the Gospel.

It really is as simple as that.


 
Quote :
  To many of your doctrines of men totally contradict the Truth in Yahweh's Word, trying to make it a simple easy thing, and no longer "Working out your salvation with fear and trembling"!

You confuse progressive Sanctification with Positional Sanctification.

We are being made holy as we walk with Christ, but, we are Justified freely by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Cornelius was saved by the Gospel he heard:


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



Cornelius was saved and at no time did he use his free will to "covenant with God."

He simply believed the Gospel Peter preached to him and was saved before Peter was even finished.

It really is that simple.



Quote :
I don't think you're as interested in Yahweh's Truth as you are in defending your personal doctrines.

My Doctrine defends itself, and this because it has the Word of God which supports it.

Read the above passage again, and go back to Acts 10:1 and read the entire story. Cornelius was a justified Old Testament Saint who still needed to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or in other words, be immersed into God and thus receive Eternal Life through Eternal Union with God.



Quote :
You wrote: And if you will note in verse 13 we are not made sons of God by heritage, the will of the fleh (what we ourselves determine), nor the will of man (what another man determines for us), we are made sons of God because we are born of God. 

We keep His Law because we have been born again, which is the result of the eternal indwelling of God, and prmised in the Old Testament



(Jn 1:13) 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


11 He came unto his own, and (Many of) his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
"Believe on His name? The "WORD OF YAHWEH"!!! His name "shall be called Emanuel", which interpreted means "GOD WITH US... Who is God? (Jn 1:1-2, 14) THE WORD!
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

(...But of God... So Born of His Blood, Born of His "Will", Born of God "His Spirit"!)

Is there a point to any of this?

Why do you ignore the point being made? Adding exclamations doesn't change the fact that no man is saved through "free will." Only by the will of God. That is how men are born again.



Quote :
You wrote: Christ is the Author and Finisher (completer) of our faith, and has made us complete in regards to remission of sins, just as He promised He would do in the Old Testament:


The above is "Out of Context"!

Actually it is not. The Writer of Hebrews has quite a bit to say about perfection/completion.

You should read it some day.



Quote :
The above means His Word is complete (Old and New),

No, Ron, it means what it says: He is the Author and Finisher (completer) of our faith.

You do realize that faith in Christ didn't start while the Law was in effect?


Galatians 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



So much for "Nothing has changed."

Faith in Christ is specific to this Age, it was not taking place while the Covenant of Law was in effect.



Quote :
and IF He abides in us, and IF we abide in Him (Remember, abide means to stay or "Break Covenant")

Show me where Scripture teaches "abide means to stay or break covenant."

You can't. You know how I know? Because abiding means to be under the New Covenant, and when one is under the New Covenant there is no possibility for men to break that Covenant.

You need to learn that God said "I will" and stop thinking it is your will.



Quote :
this would mean we are to "BE RIGHTEOUS", ...perfect as He is Perfect..., Holy and blameless... Legalism is Satan's way to say we DON'T need to be as GOD's Word teaches!

Ironic, because that is exactly what you are teaching, that men must not be the way Scripture teaches, but how you teach they should be. That they must covenant with God, and be righteous...if they want to be saved. That is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ which teaches there is nothing that men can do to be saved.


John 3:5; 9-14

King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:



Regeneration is the result of the Work of Christ, His death, His burial, His Resurrection:


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,






Quote :
From you:
Hebrews 10:1; 14-18 
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


So the emphasis on "Past" sins is not according to Scripture. Hebrews makes it clear that we have been forgiven on an eternal basis.




Again taken out of context! Already covered this.

Already ignored this, you mean.

We are made complete (perfect) through the Offering of Christ, and this on an eternal basis. It's right there, read it.

And being made complete there is no more need for offering for sin.



Quote :
I will speak to the verses above.


For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 
(This is speaking of priests, animal sacrifices, gifts, and the Tabernacle "Building")

Correct. And what it is saying is that they could not make the comer thereunto (the worshiper, the one the sacrifices were offered on behalf of) perfect, which in the Greek means a "bringing to an end." In other words, when sacrifice was offered up to bring about the temporal atonement animal sacrifice brought about...it was not finished.

Now what was the last thing the Lord said before He died on the Cross?



Quote :
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

He is speaking of the WORD OF GOD, and those "SANCTIFIED"! How are we sanctified? By FAITH, which is moral conviction, obedience to God's Laws because you Love Him.

We are told how we are sanctified:


Hebrews 10:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.



Now read v.14 again:


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified
.


The "comer thereunto" was not made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins because the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins. The Sacrifice of Christ does, and this, as I said...on an eternal basis.

Don't you want to trust in Christ today, my friend? And stop trusting in yourself?




Quote :
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.



You must not have read the entire lesson or you would know the answers, "by God's Word", I have already given.


OLD TESTAMENT:
Ezr 7:10  For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Job 22:22  Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
Psa 37:31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide
Psa 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
 
Psa 119:34  Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Pro 3:1  My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

And we are back to square one: you need to stop merging the Covenants.



Quote :
A HEART is what produces GOOD or EVIL! 
Mat 12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 



Old and New are the same!

What ineffable twaddle.

Can't be New if it is the same.




Quote :
You wrote: It isn't free will that causes a man to turn to Christ, it is the Comforter:


A TOTAL CONTRADICTION TO GOD'S WORD!!!

It's not, it's made very clear right here:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
.




Quote :
Well than I suppose by what you believe (Without Scriptural references) would mean God's Spirit (Yeshua/The Word)
is weak, and I guess applies to only those who aren't deaf!

Without Scriptural references? Really?

And by the way...I am the one stating it is the Spirit that does the enlightening. lol



Quote :
What I mean without the sarcasm is that God's Spirit has spoken to all, and all will be judged by the WORD!

It's okay, I don't mind sarcasm. It's an effective tool for teaching.

And I agree that the Spirit has always enlightened the natural man to the truths of the spiritual things of God, but, what I am trying to make you aware of is the difference in the revelation He has provided to men. Once you understand that the Gospel was not revealed to men in past Ages, past generations, to the (Old Testament) Saints or the sons of men (which is all inclusive of all men), but is now revealed by the Spirit to His holy Apostles and Prophets...

...then you will begin to see why your religion is works-based nonsense, unbiblical, and another gospel, which is not The Gospel of Jesus Christ.



Quote :
This also was already covered in this lesson.

I think you mean "lessen." Because you have detracted from the Word of God and presented religion.



Quote :
With what you believe I would assume everyone the Holy Spirit has spoken to has been "Born Again"?

Not at all. You forget I pointed out that those who rejected Christ, His Covenant, and His Sacrifice also rejected the efforts of the Spirit of Grace. BEcause you have such a shallow understanding of God you confuse the Persons of the Trinity. If you will simply read HEbrews 10:28 and 29 you w2ill see that in view are those who reject the truth. They are contrasted with those who rejected "Moses' Law," or, the Covenant of Law, and their judgment will be more severe.



Quote :
  I also assume when God's Word says to; "Choose you this day who you will serve" is incorrect?

No, it is correct, but you can't take that out of the context it is found in.

Secondly, you deny that it is God that chooses, Who calls, Who intervenes in the lives of men:


John 6:44
King James Version (KJV)

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


If you distinguished between the physical nature of the Old Testament, and balanced that with the revelation provided to men in that day, you would see why you can't take this and use it as a proof text for free will.



Quote :
Every day is a choice and a decision to follow in obedience to the Word.

This is true. Today is just as good as any for you to get started.

;)


Quote :
RE: GRACE
You wrote: This is a great definition for grace, because we lose God because He first loved us. The natural man has no love for God, and cannot understand the spiritual things of God. He is dependent on divine intervention, that he might understand the Gospel, and thus be saved. 


GRACE is not "The unmerited favor of God"! This implies we do NOTHING! A LIE!

You deny the Word of God...again:


Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;




You are the one preaching a lie.



Quote :
Very Good! This proves we have FREE WILL, and whether or not to choose to follow the Word!

You do have free will, and you have chosen whether you will follow His Word or not. Sorry you have chosen not to.

But you did not exercise free will to be saved. That is an entirely different issue.



Quote :
We choose to accept Him, we choose to put on His armor, we choose to follow daily, we choose to sin or defeat it with the Living Word, God doesn't make robots, nor does God put us in sin, and that's why it's REQUIRED that we PUT ON THE WORD to be perfect as He is perfect, Holy and blameless.

You were born dead, You had no life, and no ability to understand the spiritual things of God. What you needed from conception was to brought into union with God, because you were born separated from God, as all of us were. If you are saved, it was not because you decided one day you were going to be saved. God worked in your heart, revealing the truth of the Gospel along with the truth of your condition. You did not exercise free will according to your nature...which would have only allowed you to reject the truth shown you. You simply yielded to the truth and asked Christ to save you.

It is as simple as that, my friend.

Again, He authored your faith, and He will be the one to complete it. He will finish the work He began in you.



Quote :
 GRACE is the benefits of God WHEN WE ARE FAITHFUL (Moral Conviction = Doing what is right or righteous!)

Not according to the word of God:


Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



God is a debtor to no man, because all have sinned and fallen short of His glory.


Quote :
SIN can't access God's Grace!

Wrong again:


Romans 5:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.





Quote :
You wrote: This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant. 


John 16:7-9 
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;



This is because THE WORD/YESHUA was here on earth! He had to ascend so He/The Spirit could be heard to all!


The point is that after He returns to Heaven He will send the Comforter, and the Comforter will convict men of sin...because they do not believe on Jesus Christ. This leading us to the point that the Comforter ministers to...unbelievers.

Lastly, you now contradict yourself, in that before you were trying to say the Word gives light to every man in a context of salvation.



Quote :
What this doesn't say, "This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant."
This is not the "Spirit of Grace"!

Just how many Spirits do you think there are?

Just so you know, the Bible speaks of only One.



Quote :
Stop with the "Doctrines of men"! Become like that of a Berean! Study the Word and seek Truth! Trust no man, for all men are liars! Don't believe me, BELIEVE THE WORD!!!

My doctrine is supported by the Word of God, and is irrefutable. I guess that is why you have ignored the doctrine presented to you.

And that is all the time I have for today, I will try to get to the rtest of your post at the next available time.


God bless.
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ron_evartt
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 3:44 pm

You have the free will to choose to follow your doctrines of men, and believe we do nothing on our part. It is obvious you believe Yahweh made a mistake and had to correct it, which would make God a liar and imperfect. You also twisted my words to say I believe in a works based salvation, which Yahweh's Word proves "faith without works is dead"! God's Laws and Commands haven't changed, but man has changed Yahweh's Word into an easy believe religion where there is no longer fear and trembling, and Loving Yahweh by obedience to His Word and not mine. You must not believe "WE" must give Him our lives and die to this flesh. There is no "Covenant of the Law". It was something made up by men to promote their doctrine. 
Jas 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 
Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 

Did Jesus/Yeshua exist in the Old? If so Grace and Truth also existed! Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 
Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 

Did the Holy Spirit exist in the Old? Psa 51:11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 

What did every Prophet say? Repent or your destruction awaits! Apparently repentance is "Nothing We Do" by your teaching. Act 26:20  But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 

Your fight is not with me, but with the Living Word.

I wish you the best and hope you find Truth. Not that I have all the answers or am perfect in my growth, but I serve an Unchanging, Perfect God, whose Word is the Way, Truth, and Life. I will love my God and others by doing works of faith which leads to salvation. 
Does Matt. 7:21 say we must do something?
Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

Ecc 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 
Ecc 12:14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 

So who is the Heretic?

Oh by the way I didn't ever say to remove any of God's Word, just the pages that say Old and New (before the scriptures). There is old mediators (Re: relationship to Yahweh), and now the Mediator, Yeshua (A more personal relationship by The Word, which is Yeshua.), but faith (Obedience) has always been the Way.

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life


The end.
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ron_evartt
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 4:21 pm

Quote :[size=18]What this doesn't say, "This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant."
This is not the "Spirit of Grace"!
[/size]

Just how many Spirits do you think there are?

Just so you know, the Bible speaks of only One.


My mistake. What I meant was the way you were trying to interpret Grace. I should have written it as, "This is not the definition of Grace ("Spirit of Grace"), in the way you are trying to use it. The "Spirit of Grace" is still and will always be accessed by Faith (Rom 5:2). There's only one Spirit, Old and New.
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Darrell Conner
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 5:50 pm

@ron_evartt wrote:
Quote :[size=18]What this doesn't say, "This is the Spirit of Grace that the Hebrews who are adversaries in Hebrews 10:26-29 reject, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Covenant."
This is not the "Spirit of Grace"!
[/size]

Just how many Spirits do you think there are?

Just so you know, the Bible speaks of only One.


My mistake. What I meant was the way you were trying to interpret Grace. I should have written it as, "This is not the definition of Grace ("Spirit of Grace"), in the way you are trying to use it. The "Spirit of Grace" is still and will always be accessed by Faith (Rom 5:2). There's only one Spirit, Old and New.

Again you miss the point: the Spirit Who was promised was not given to men in the Old Testament, but was given on the Day of Pentecost. IF you ignore this you will inevitably draw conclusions as you have.

Abraham did not receive the Spirit sent after Christ's Death, burial, and Resurrection, no man prior to Pentecost did:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)




God bless.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Tue May 15, 2018 9:28 pm

So you still think even Abraham didn't have the Holy Spirit? What than was Abraham blessed with? 


Gal 3:14  That the "blessing of Abraham" might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith



Abraham was blessed with the Spirit of God! The one and only Spirit.
That blessing might come on the Gentiles as it was on him, "The Promise of The Spirit through FAITH!"
FAITH in What? ...might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ (The Word)...


So who is it that believes in more than one Holy Spirit?


Once again this proves the "New Covenant" as being with Yeshua/The Word (Life, Death, and Resurrection) as the "New Mediator" of the New Covenant, but as in the old and new it's through Faith (Moral Conviction) and Faith alone that accesses the benefits (Grace) of Yahweh. 


What is the greatest commandment?
Mar 12:30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 
Mar 12:31  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 
Mar 12:32  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 
Mar 12:33  And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 


If I'm not mistaken this Command is absolutely something we must do! Body, soul, and Spirit!


It's not a prayer that saves eternally, it's a life commitment to loving Yahweh by obedience to His Commandments!


It's never about what a person says (Sinners Prayer), as opposed to what a person does! Their words better match their actions!




Your mouth and actions (Faith with works) better match!
Isa 29:13  Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men



Mat 15:8  This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart (Their works, Matt 12:35 ) is far from me. 
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men




Mat 12:34  O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 
Mat 12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 
Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 
Mat 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. 


Would you agree that obeying God's Laws and Commands (His precepts) "bring forth that which is good", or "that which is evil"?


The Law that is evil was the Talmud. The many books the Jews added to God's Law. That's why the reading of the "Law of Moses", given to Him by Yahweh, we are instructed to: Mat 23:2  Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat (The reading of the Law)
Mat 23:3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not


Obedience to Yahweh's Laws, not the Talmud, "...observe and do..."!  The scribes and Pharisees believed that the more they sinned the more Grace would abound. Yahweh forbids. Not living by the Law, but by Faith which keeps the Law, which is how we love Yahweh and others.

Paul taught and practiced what Moses wrote (Acts 21:20, 26, 24:13-14, 25:8). Paul never taught against the “Law”, but clearly wrote those who aren’t sinning can’t be under a law because the “Law” doesn’t apply to those who walk in “RIGHTEOUSNESS”. 
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Darrell Conner
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Wed May 16, 2018 8:59 am

Ron wrote:
You have the free will to choose to follow your doctrines of men, and believe we do nothing on our part. It is obvious you believe Yahweh made a mistake and had to correct it, which would make God a liar and imperfect.


Not sure how you see the irrefutable fact that men did not receive the Atonement, Reconciliation, or the eternal indwelling of God...as "God made a mistake."

Again, you fail to recognize the progressive nature of revelation. While the Gospel was spoken in the Old Testament, understanding was not given to men prior to the coming of the Promised Spirit:


Colossians 1:25-27


King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



It is now made manifest to His Saints, and this by the Spirit sent from Heaven:


1 Peter 1:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



Not convinced yet?


Ephesians 3:3-5 
King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



Most will confuse Paul's statement here as regarding GEntile Inclusion solely, but, when we balance that with all of his teachings we see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery not revealed to men prior to the sending of the promised Spirit, the Comforter.



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You also twisted my words to say I believe in a works based salvation,


No "twisting" needed, you teach salvation through works, that is seen in your next statement...



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which Yahweh's Word proves "faith without works is dead"!


...as well as in this statement...


Ron wrote:

I will love my God and others by doing works of faith which leads to salvation.


It is because you merge the Covenants (the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant) and cannot distinguish the magnitude of the Cross that you, unbeknownst to yourself, teach a religion of works...not Christianity.



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God's Laws and Commands haven't changed,


They have:


Hebrews 7:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.



The Law could not give life, and it could not make the comer thereunto perfect (complete) in regards to remission of sins. The Old Testament Saints were not made perfect because they did not receive what God promised in the Old Testament:



Hebrews 11:13 
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.





39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Their spirits went into Sheol/Hades without receiving the promises of God, and their spirits were made perfect postmortem:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)


18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,




22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



The Writer takes animal sacrifice all the way back to Abel, and makes the contrast between the sacrifices that could not make perfect and the Sacrifice that does so on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10:10&14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



So the question before you is do you want to continue to preach religion?

Or the Gospel of Jesus Christ?



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but man has changed Yahweh's Word into an easy believe religion where there is no longer fear and trembling,


Whereas you have changed into a hard to be saved religion that demands one work their way into God's grace.

Completely contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Romans 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.



Men are sinners prior to their conversion, and there has to date not been the first man born again that hasn't, after salvation...sinned again.

That's you and me, my friend.



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and Loving Yahweh by obedience to His Word and not mine.


1 John 4:19


King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.



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You must not believe "WE" must give Him our lives and die to this flesh.


I absolutely do, but unlike you I see this as possible only through the Spirit of God. What I accomplish has no eternal value, but what He accomplishes living in and through me does.




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There is no "Covenant of the Law". It was something made up by men to promote their doctrine.


The Covenant of Law is spoken of in most of the Word of God. 


Galatians 4:23-25
King James Version (KJV)

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.




Quote :

Jas 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 
Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 


This has a temporal context, and speaks of justification before men, meaning our works evidence whether we have genuine faith or not. The problem most have is they equate the justification of Abraham based on what he did (believing God that He would give him a son that all nations would be blessed through) with being Justified frely by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Hence the 500 year old battle between Catholics and Protestants (and Evangelicals) about whether we are "justified" by faith alone or by faith and works.

So if you make that same error, Ron, guess what you are doing?

You are saying there is a way to obtain eternal salvation other than through the Cross and Resurrection of Christ, hence you are preaching another gospel.

Don't feel bad, most do this, and like you are unaware that you teach works-based salvation, you are unaware that you teach salvation apart from believing on Christ.

Eternal Redemption is possible only through Christ, and Eternal Redemption did not begin until Christ died, arose, and sent the Promised Spirit to begin the ministry of Comforter, eternally indwelling believers.


Hebrews 9:12


King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



Romans 3:21-24

King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



Paul makes it clear that the Faith of Jesus Christ had not come while men were under Law. Why have you not commented on that?



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Did Jesus/Yeshua exist in the Old?

No, Jesus Christ has a beginning in time as a man Who would die in the stead of the sinner. This too has been pointed out to you:


Galatians 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



I have shown you that being born of God did not begin until the WORD manifested and dwelt among men in John 1, yet you are strangely silent on these irrefutable Biblical Truths.

Why is that, Ron?

You confuse temporal neginning of the Messiah with the Eternal Son of the Living God, Who is the Creator. Don't do that, Ron.




Quote :
If so Grace and Truth also existed!

Not the grace by which men are reconciled to God, my friend:


John 1:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.



See the distinction? This is made throughout the New Testament, but, if you aren't looking for it, and instead seeking to use the Word of God to proof-text works-based religion...you will not see it.



Quote :


Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 
Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 


But Noah died...not having received the Promises.

It would not be until Christ to atone for his sin on an eternal basis that Noah would be made complete in regards to remission of sins and reconciled to God.

You can't impose reconciliation to God into the Old Testament:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.




Quote :

Did the Holy Spirit exist in the Old? Psa 51:11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 


Of course, but, the Comforter, Who is the Spirit of God, had not come, and had not began to reveal the Gospel directly to the hearts of men:


John 16:7 
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



Are you going to ignore the teachings of Christ on this point as well? Do you see He says "I must leave so that He can come, and if I don't...He wont?"

Are you going to equate the Ministry of the Comforter to the Ministry of the Spirit in Old Testament Economies...when Christ makes it clear they are not the same?

The Spirit has always worked in the hearts and lives of men, revealing truth, but, He was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are so many basic and simple truths you are denying, my friend, so I exhort you to give these truths some consideration.


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What did every Prophet say? Repent or your destruction awaits!

This is true, but what did Christ say?


John 3:16-17


King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



You are trying to teach men to be obedient to the Gospel, whereas it is the Gospel of Christ men are to come into obedience to:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:




You are not being obedient to the Gospel of Christ, Ron, you are teaching another gospel: salvation by works, rather than salvation in Christ.



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Apparently repentance is "Nothing We Do" by your teaching.

In regards to progressive sanctification, it certainly is, but, in regards to conversion, no.

God grants repentance unto life:


Acts 11:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



If you simply read Acts 10-11:18 you will see that Cornelius was a justified Old Testament Saint still in need of...life eternal. And he was saved by the words spoken by Peter, the Gospel:


Acts 11:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



John's disciples repented and were baptized with water, but, Cornelius believed the Gospel and was Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is his immersion into God in eternal union.

The Gospel isn't about men repenting so they can be saved, it is about what Christ did, and when men believe on the Name of Jesus Christ they are...saved eternally.



Quote :

Act 26:20  But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And again you seek to proof-text your religious doctrine. Read a little further:


Acts 26:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.



Paul preached the Gospel, God granted repentance unto life:


1 Corinthians 9:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!




1 Corinthians 1:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;




1 Corinthians 2:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.



Galatians 6:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.





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Your fight is not with me, but with the Living Word.


There is no fight, my friend, my doctrine is based on the Word of God, yours is based on humanistic religion.

It is hard for thee to kicks against the goads. Refute this doctrine if you can.




Quote :


I wish you the best and hope you find Truth.



Or in other words, it's okay with you if men die and go into a Christ-less eternity.

Nice.



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Not that I have all the answers or am perfect in my growth,

You don't have any answers, my friend. Your doctrine stumbles all over itself. You lead men away from Christ and to religion.



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but I serve an Unchanging, Perfect God, whose Word is the Way, Truth, and Life.


That is not what I am seeing. What I see is the equivalent of crucifying unto yourself the Christ again.

You think what you do contributes to the Work of Christ.

Until you realize that Eternal Salvation began when Christ came you will continue to merge doctrines that are distinct to dsistinct Ages.



Quote :


I will love my God and others by doing works of faith which leads to salvation.

BUt if they receive not your doctrine...good luck.

Search your heart, my friend. Listen to the Word of God speak to you.



Quote :
Does Matt. 7:21 say we must do something?
Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

Do you know that Jeus Christ, during His ministry, was not ministering to the world?


Matthew 15:24


King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Do you know that when He sent His disciples out He sent them only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (as opposed to the Gospel of Christ which was still a Mystery during the Age of Law)?


Matthew 10 
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



They (the disciples) were empowered by the Spirit to heal, preach, cast out demons, but...

...they were not yet eternally indwelt:


John 14:15-23

King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



Did you know before today that born again believers are indwelt by God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?


That is because we have been immersed into the One God of the Bible, and He eternally indwells us.


Quote :

Ecc 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 
Ecc 12:14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. 

It's a false argument, my friend, I have never said we are not to keep His commandments. The trouble you are having is identifying how we do that. For example, you are not keeping the words of Jesus Christ, hence are not keeping His commandments. Instead...


Mark 7:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.



We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, not by them.



Quote :
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And the one word I would direct you to here is the word...dead.

These stand before the Great White THrone because they never, in their lifetimes...received the life CHrist came to give.

Want to see some more people that were dead?


John 6:49-53 
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



When did the True Bread come down from Heaven, Ron? Same time we are told He came in John 1.

What is the True Bread Christ came to give? He makes it clear...His flesh. In other words, His Death on the Cross.

The "fathers," by the way...include Moses. The Lord is not telling the Jews their father had died physically, but that they...had not the life He came down from Heaven to give, that men might have eternal life through Him.

Salvation is through believing on Jesus Christ, no works you can do will help you obtain Eternal Redemption. God gives this freely by His grace, which is why salvation is called...a gift.



Quote :

So who is the Heretic?


You, of course.

;)

But I know you are not yet aware why your doctrine is heresy, and I pray you will give some thought to the simple truths being revealed to you at this time.



Quote :


Oh by the way I didn't ever say to remove any of God's Word, just the pages that say Old and New (before the scriptures).

You said...



Ron wrote:
Do yourself a favor and rip out the sections in your Bible separating the Old and the New. It is ALL the Word of Yahweh, and it's all relevant to today!


Whereas I am telling you that a primary reason for your confusion is your inability to distinguish between the Old and the New.

And I would give as one example the difference between the Disicples before they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God, Baptized into Christ, eternally indwelt) and after. Before, Peter denies he even knows the Lord, and after...he preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

He too would sin after being eternally redeemed, but thanks goodness our Heavenly Father is the supreme Father, and knows how to bring His children up in the way they should go. Correcting when it is needed, helping when it is needed, and ever instructing us in the Way of Righteousness.



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There is old mediators (Re: relationship to Yahweh), and now the Mediator, Yeshua

Good, you can make a distinction between when men had Christ as the Mediator of the New Covenant...and when they didn't.

That's a start.



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(A more personal relationship by The Word, which is Yeshua.),

I agree: being reconciled to God and eternally indwelt is an extremely closer relationship than that the Old Testament Saints had.



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but faith (Obedience) has always been the Way.


I agree. However, I would remind you once again that the object of faith has changed:


Galatians 3:20-25

King James Version (KJV)

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



General faith in God is no longer acceptable (Hebrews 6:1-3). Men must believe on Jesus Christ specifically, and in His Death, burial, and Resurrection:


Acts 4:11-132

King James Version (KJV)

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



RIght now you are trusting in the name of Ron, and what Ron can accomplish, that he might gain salvation through his works.


Trust in Christ, only He can make you complete in regards to remission of sins, and only through the Cross can one gain Eternal Redemption.

Quote :

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life

So did the Gentiles receive Eternal Life by performing the works of the Law written on their hearts?

No.

I would suggest to you that they were justified by their obedience, but, we do not equate that with receiving life through believing on Jesus Chris. Our sins have been judged in Christ, and while our works will be judged, our Eternal Union with God will never be broken:


1 Corinthians 3:11-15


King James Version (KJV)

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




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The end.


No, the end hasn't come yet, there is still time to embrace the Word of God and depart from popular modern theologies that cannot save. There is still time to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ can reconcile men to God, and bring about Regeneration:


1 Peter 1:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;




God bless.
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Darrell Conner
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Wed May 16, 2018 9:19 am

@ron_evartt wrote:
So you still think even Abraham didn't have the Holy Spirit? What than was Abraham blessed with? 


Gal 3:14  That the "blessing of Abraham" might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith



Note "that we might receive the Promise of the Spirit." Abraham did not.

Not even the Discples of Christ received the Promised Spirit until Pentecost. This is made clear by Christ:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



There is a distinction drawn between the Spirit ministering among men prior to Pentecost and after. John 14 makes that abundantly clear. Here we see that the Spirit will not be given until after Christ is glorified, which speak of His Resurrection, as well as extends to His Ascension, His return to Heaven as He said in John 16:7.

Now, to make it even clearer, let's take a look at what the Lord states just before He ascends:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



The "Promise of the Father," which the Lord had taught the disciples about, is defined as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. John the Baptist baptized with water, but prophesied of Christ the Baptizer baptizing with the Holy Ghost. Christ equally defines the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as "the Promise of the Father."

This is the distinct Ministry of the Comforter the Lord teaches of in detail in John 14 and 16. It was not taking place prior to Pentecost. The ministry of the Spirit has always taken place, but again I remind you that the Spirit was not revealing to men the Mystery of the Gospel.

And when the Spirit is sent at Pentecost, we see the disciples immediately preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which they had before not only been ignorant of, but in opposition to it:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



Peter is essentially saying, "No Lord! I don't want the only thing that can keep me from Eternal Judgment to happen!"

Peter would go on to try to prevent the Cross with physical means, with a sword and violence, and when that failed, and the Lord was taken, would deny that he even knew Jesus Christ, that he might save his physical life.

But we cannot go too hard on the disciples, because Prophecy foretold a physical Kingdom with the Messuah reigning over an everlasting throne. IN their minds they expected a physical descendant of David who would never fail to have an heir on the throne. We see this carnal expectation here as well...


Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?



Wait...what? You have just been told that you are going to be baptized with the Holy Ghost...and you are concerned about the physical Kingdom promised by God?

Again, understandable, because the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has not yet been revealed. Paul makes it clear in several teachings this knowledge is revealed by the Spirit, that is, the Promised Spirit of Prophecy.

The Lord doesn't say "Well, we aren't going to do that now, we have another plan..."


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.



...He simply states it was not for the disciples to know when that fulfillment would take place.

He goes on to say...


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Most denominations teach that the Holy Ghost "soming upon them" here refers to empowerment, and that is true, however, in view is the same thing He just told them would take place, which is their being baptized with the Holy Ghost. Again we consider that the Holy Ghost has always empowered men for ministries such as Prophet, Priest, and King, as well as to conquer in battle, so we understand that in view is not simplyt empowerment, but the same thing that occurs to Cornelius in Acts 10 and is defined in Acts 11:13-18.

They are immersed into God, and because they receive the Promised Spirit, they have revealed to them the Mystery of the Gospel, and immediately fulfill the Word of Christ, going, not just to the Lost Sheep of Israel, but to the World.


God bless.
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Darrell Conner
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Wed May 16, 2018 9:25 am

Ron wrote:
It's not a prayer that saves eternally, it's a life commitment to loving Yahweh by obedience to His Commandments!



Or in other words, it is what men do that saves them.



That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that is works-based religion at it's worst.


This is what your doctrine denies:





Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;




God bless.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Wed May 16, 2018 11:14 am

You continue taking scriptures out of context and leaving out much of Yahweh's Word. If you want to live by a few verses you will starve to death. 

Please learn to understand the difference between "our works" and the working of faith in Yeshua, The Word.

Faith in Yahweh/Yeshua has been as will always be by obedience. The definition of Faith is "Moral Conviction". 

Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

How do we love Yahweh? Joh 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments. You love Him by keeping His commandments.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Thu May 17, 2018 7:35 am

Ron wrote:
You continue taking scriptures out of context and leaving out much of Yahweh's Word.


You would have to show me what you think was taken out of context. Merely saying it is a cop-out.



Quote :
If you want to live by a few verses you will starve to death.


I hardly think the presentation given to you could be considered "a few verses." You must be referring to the ones you actually read.

;)



Quote :

Please learn to understand the difference between "our works" and the working of faith in Yeshua, The Word.


Now you are taking my side of the discussion, lol. That is what I have been trying to show you, the difference between the works we perform when we are reconciled to God, indwelt of the Spirit (which is identical to being in Him), and born again, new creatures as a result of being in Him and He in us...and the Work of GOd in salvation.

You teach man's works as contributing to salvation and that is simply not the case. Men have no knowledge of their condition (that of being separated from God and dead because they do not have His life) and will not turn to Christ of their own volition. That takes the intervention of God, for God must reveal spiritual truth to them before they can come into obedience to the truth. For Abraham obedience was to the command of God to follow Him where He led, and to believe God when He made promise to him concerning his son (seed) and the blessings that would in the future take place.

Today obedience is to His Word concerning His Son and the Gospel.

You are continually forced to ignore the points raised to you, reiterate the same arguments already addressed and shown to be in error, and introduce false arguments...

...because you cannot address the arguments.

So I will challenge you to address the first argument I see vital to understanding Regeneration, which is that the Disciples of Christ, while ministering under Christ during His earthly ministry...were not born again believers trusting in the Cross of Christ.

And my friend, if that work is not performed, that one might receive the Spirit of God in Reconciliation, then any works performed by such a man are the dead works God rejects in this Age.


Ezekiel 36:27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



BEcause you reject the distinction the Word of God places between the Covenant of Law (which you reject as even existing) and the New Covenant, you do not understand that the Covenant of Law was made with Israel...not the world. It is specific to the People of God of that Age, and we are not under the (Covenant of) Law.

Hence you merge commandments given to a specific people in a specific time with the commandments Christ has given us. That does not mean we do not, as Paul teaches, establish the Law in our lives, because we are to live in a way in which no principle of the Law is violated (i.e., we do not steal, kill, commit adultery, etc.).

What you are doing is actually in violation of the Word of God, for you are again laying the foundational prionciples instead of going on unto the perfection (completion) Christ has brought us:



Hebrews 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.



You said...

Ron wrote:

What did every Prophet say? Repent or your destruction awaits!


...but you ignore the Word of God:


Hebrews 1:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;



You are not keeping the commandments of God, you are keeping the cammondments of Moses, because you are ministering the wrong Covenant:


2 Corinthians 3:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.





Quote :


Faith in Yahweh/Yeshua has been as will always be by obedience. The definition of Faith is "Moral Conviction".


Again you ignore a simple truth shown to you...there was no faith in Jesus Christ prior to Pentecost:



Galatians 3:20-27
King James Version (KJV)

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



I need not comment on the Word here, because it speaks for itself.

Now let's see Reconciliation through immersion into God:


27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


In other words, we live like Christ because we are in Christ. And that did not begin before Pentecost. The first ones Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God) were the Disciples at Pentecost. I have shown that they were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost on the day of Ascension, that it took place "not many days hence" from the time of Christ's telling them they would receive the Promised Spirit.

Not one thing is out of context, it is simply basic truths which for some reason many professing to trust in Christ reject. IroniY?

No...disobedience to the Commandment of Christ.



Quote :

Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So let's look at Abraham's works, given to show that works evidence genuine faith:


James 2:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Do you see it Ron? Do you see that the justification in view here is based on Abraham being obedient to the command to offer up Isaac?

Do not, as most do...confuse that with being justified based on what Christ did.

In view is not eternal redemption because Abraham was willing to offer up his son. Eternal Redemption is based on the Father offering up His Son.

Big difference.

And we are given another illustration that makes it clear in view is temporal justification:


25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Do you think Rahab was eternally redeemed...because she helped the messengers?

If you do, then you have created two ways for men to be saved, works, like Rahab's here (or Abraham's), and the Work of Christ.


Quote :


How do we love Yahweh? Joh 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments. You love Him by keeping His commandments.


Again:


1 John 4:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.



You think you are keeping His commandments, but you are not, and will not until you come into agreement with His teaching:


John 14:23-26
King James Version (KJV)


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



Until you come into agreement with the Word of Christ you fool yourself in thinking being under the Law is keeping the commandments of God.

You are laying again the foundational principles of the Law (both the Covenant and the Word) and rejecting that which is Perfect, Jesus Christ Himself and His Word.



Ron wrote:
What did every Prophet say? Repent or your destruction awaits!



Hebrews 1:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;




The Prophets ministered to a generation (and generations) that would come long after them. Come into obedience to the Word of Christ, and go on unto perfection, my friend.

No more false arguments, no more reiterations of the weak arguments you present to support works-based salvation, which is another gospel. Address the one point raised to you in this post: the Disciple were not born again believers in the Risen Savior of the World, though they were believers in the Messiah of Israel.


God bless.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Fri May 18, 2018 11:40 pm

I will try another approach to our dialog by covering one thing at a time. Sometimes I say things thinking people will understand, but that’s a wrong assumption on my part. I should have never have tried to sit down with little time and show what God’s Word teaches.

The Law


JESUS: Mat 5:14  You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.               
Mat 5:15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light unto all that are in the house.                                                                
Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.    
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.                                          
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, And shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.                                                                                                               
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
(They taught the Law and added to it, but didn’t keep it.)
When they crucified Jesus on the cross it was because of “The Word”! What was on the cross? The Eternal Word of God that can’t be killed, only the flesh dies, as our flesh must be put to death daily! They crucified Him for the Word He spoke. He suffered ALL THINGS as a man (Flesh) to show that we can OVERCOME sin by obedience to His Word, so that we too could pass from death to Life Eternal.
The Law has not been done away with or that it no longer exists, because the Law is the Spirit of God!
It’s not a “Covenant of Law”, it‘s a covenant between God and His people! It’s a “Covenant of Love between God and His people”! Why?                                  
“If you love me, you will obey me”, Law = Righteousness or right with God.


Why? Because God’s Word is eternal. Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (“WE” ESTABLISH THE LAW).  It’s something “WE” choose to uphold.                                                                                                             
 G2476    “ESTABLISH”                                                                                          
A prolonged form of a primary word (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).
Where is God’s Law established, Old and New? In our heart!

Rom 2:15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)       
                                                                                                  
Heart = that which is producing good (Matt 12:35) The Law (Good), which is to be “morally right”, Faith which is “Moral Conviction”, or evil which is disobedience.

Was His Spirit within and upon men in the old? YES! (There’s only one Spirit)
                                                    
The Father, Word, and Spirit are one. They existed in the Old and New.


Psa 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right (Righteous) spirit within me.


Job 32:8  But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yes, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth (In men), the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Dan 6:3  Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm.

Job 27:3  All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

And many more.
 
 
Would God do away with that which is perfect? NO!


Psa 19:7  The law of the LORD (Jesus/The Word) is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD (Jesus/The Word) is sure, making wise the simple.

The Law is the “WAY”: (Ps. 119:1, Ex. 18:20, Deut. 10:12, Josh. 22:51, I Kings 2:3, Prov. 6:23, Is. 2:3, Mal. 2:8, Mark 12:14, Acts 24:14), Can the “WAY” become a different “WAY”?


CONCLUSION: What does all of this prove?

God’s Spirit is His Law written on our hearts if we abide with Him, He will abide with us.
                                                                                                                   
The New Covenant is not a “New Way”, but a better way through Jesus Life, Death, and Resurrection. No longer are those who were faithful in hell, but He descended and set those captives free. “A MUCH BETTER WAY”! In the Old they knew that one day Jesus would be the “Perfect Sacrifice (Lamb of God)”, and because of their hope that once Jesus died on the cross they would no longer suffer torment, but now we in the New won’t have to suffer that fate.

This also proves that we must do works seen by men (The Words of Jesus).

It destroys your definition of Grace as the “unmerited favor of God”. He gave us “INSTRUCTIONS IN RIGHTEOUSNESS”


It proves that obedience to God keeps us from being “under the Law”, when we choose to obey God. Is it too difficult to be perfect as His Word says we should be? No, but that’s not what you teach. What is Jesus coming back for? A Bride clothed in white (Without sin).

So how are we clothed?

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
 Eph 4:24  And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
 
Rev 3:5  He (Meaning “you”) that overcomes (Puts on the Word and doesn’t sin), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Examples:
                                                                                                               
Luk 1:6  And they were both righteous before God, walking (Works) in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Does a baby clothe himself? No, but as your knowledge grows so does your responsibility and requirement to clothe yourself.


Can a person accept Jesus and give their life to Him, and then die immediately and go to be with God? (Possibly)

Is one who is mature required to clothe themselves once they learn the ways of the Lord God? Yes!

Mat 22:11  And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:  (He had not clothed himself in righteousness)                                                                            
Mat 22:12  And he said unto him, Friend, how did you come in here not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.  
Mat 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.                                                               
Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen. (The faithful who are known by their good works (The Word of Jesus).)

How do we achieve perfection?


Taking our thoughts captive, and then making a choice whether or not to sin. It’s something we must do! The below prove we always have free will whether to choose good or evil. Obey or disobey.

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (The Word);
2Co 10:6  And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

2Ti 2:26  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Eph 6:11  Put on (YOU) the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand Against The wiles of the devil.

Jas 2:4  Are you not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Eph 4:23  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;                                           
Eph 4:24  And that “you” put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Jud_1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 



1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain. 


1Ti 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 


The letters to all 7 churches Jesus says the same thing, “I know your works”.


Jesus said, Rev 3:2  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


Tit 1:15  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.          
Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

(Re: Php 2:12)Why would the Word say this? What does “work out” mean?


G2716    “Work out”
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,  for instruction in righteousness (Something we learn to do)                                                                                                                        
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


All these things prove your doctrines of Faith, Works, and Grace are false. Also proves we have free will all the time, whether to obey or disobey.

God’s Word:  
                                                                                                          
1) FAITH is “Moral Conviction”, doing what is morally right. (Strong’s G4102)

2) GRACE is only “accessed by Faith”, not sin. (Rom 5:2)

3) WORKS are a “requirement”, and we will be judged by them. (Mat 5:16) It must be done with love for God and others. (Joh 13:35, Rom 13:10)

Mat 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

4) WORKS are a “Daily Choice”.
Luk 9:23  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself (Showing again it is something WE must do, also “…take up his cross daily…), and take up his cross daily, and follow me (The Word)


Can you understand this? His Word tells us what to do, but we have to ACT on the Word!


Joh 5:8  Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Joh 5:14  Afterward Jesus finds him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. (This man went to the Temple to give thanks and praise, “a believer in what “Jesus said”. This shows after a believer is “Made Whole” they shouldn’t sin, “lest a worse thing come unto thee”.)


This destroys your “present and future sin doctrine”. What could possibly be worse than being completely disabled (Captive to Sin)? Spiritual Death!


Joh 8:11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (God’s Mercy, and His instruction in “Righteousness”)


Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

G622  “PERISH”  Means to DESTROY FULLY!


The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

Jesus said twice that the son who left the Father was dead and lost. That son wasn’t physically dead and lost, he was spiritually Dead and Lost! As long as he stayed with his Father as a faithful son (Believer), he would not have lost his inheritance (Eternal Life). You have to remember the son was with his Father (God). Showing he was someone who was a “son of God”. He left his Father and lost his inheritance. If he had not realized later that his Father had servants with more than enough food (Word of God) to spare, and convince himself to go back, he would have died a spiritual death. When he returned to his Father the Father (God) said two things (Once again when it’s repeated twice it’s HIGHLY emphasizing the point to be made) he is alive and found. Not referring to physically alive and found, but spiritually alive and found. 
How do I know this?

1) The Father ran, fell on his neck, and kissed him. God’s joy, of one who could have been eternally lost, but now is found. One who was dead (Without the Holy Spirit any longer), but now is alive.

2) Repentance was “REQUIRED”, to be reconciled to the Father. …Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.


3) He was then clothed in “Righteousness” Luk 15:22  But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:


4) They then killed the fatted calf (As in a marriage feast) to show the reunion of the Father to the son.  Luk 15:23  And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
 
Most of the parables from Jesus have the same teaching, that those who are faithfully obedient and choose to be a servant and a son/daughter, and show there works of faith will inherent the Kingdom of God.
 
 
 END OF MY DIALOG WITH YOU!


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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 11:01 am

@ron_evartt wrote:
I will try another approach to our dialog by covering one thing at a time. Sometimes I say things thinking people will understand, but that’s a wrong assumption on my part. I should have never have tried to sit down with little time and show what God’s Word teaches.

The Law


JESUS: Mat 5:14  You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.               
Mat 5:15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light unto all that are in the house.                                                                
Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.   

Your doctrine is understood, in fact better than you understand it. You deny being a works-based teacher yet that is all you talk about...what men must do to be saved.

Your heresy and confusion can be seen summed up in...


Quote :
because the Law is the Spirit of God!


He is not the Law...He gave the Law. And that the Law has been changed has already been shown to you:


Hebrews 7:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.



It is quite obvious you do not have an understanding of Scripture, because if you did, you would not be teaching such unbiblical doctrine.

Note that Perfection (Completion) could not be bestowed by the Levitical Priesthood in v.11. Note also that the people (that is...Israel, the People of God) received the Law through them. This is not speaking about the WORD, it is speaking of the Word of God and the Covenant. They, the Levitical priesthood, ministered the Law to Israel.

Now listen to the question asked: Why was another Priest needed? The answer demanded in the question is...because their service could not make the comer thereunto...perfect. That is the necessity, Ron. Therefore, of necessity...there is a change of not just the Priesthood but of the Law itself.

Keep reading:


Hebrews 7:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



You are trying to bring men into bondage tot hat which has been disannuled. Because...it was unprofitable.

Because the Law made nothing perfect (complete).

And it is the bringing in of a better hope, look at it now...did. Not might bring it in. Not will bring it in. But did bring it in.

And this hope is in Jeus Christ, He Whom you reject:


1 Peter 1:3-5
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



The Gospel is a Mystery revealed only to the initiate. You should ask yourself why you are blind to it.

We have a living hope, because Christ is our hope, not works of righteousness which we have done, or that we will do:


Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Paul wrote, for men like you...


Galatians 2:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



As I said before, it is not to late to turn to Christ. He does not recognize the Covenant of Law as a means of realtionship with HImself, only the New Covenant. That you think the Covenant of Law is still in effect shows the lack of understanding you have concerning the Gospel of Christ, so I would exhort you to listen to the Comforter, instead of rejecting His efforts.

You cannot save yourself by "keeping the Law," that is the entire reason why Christ had to die in your stead. Because men cannot keep the Law:


Hebrews 8:6-10
King James Version (KJV)

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.



Even one with a natural mind should be able to understand this: Christ is the Mediator of a better Covenant. That is a primary theme of Hebrews, that there are two Covenants, one has been made obsolete (the Covenant of Law), and the other is New.

Unserstand that what the Writer is speaking about is Christ being the Mediator of the New Covenant. Now see the Covenant of Law:



7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.



See that there are Two Covenants in view? THe First...and the Second.

See that a place was sought for the Second (which He has already stated Christ is the Mediator of)?

Now let's see why:


8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



Why we don't make this exclusive to divided Israel, the Two Houses Israel (Northern Kingdom) and Judah (Southern Kingdom) is based on Gentile Inclusion, which was a Mystery just the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery. The fault lay with them, not the Covenant of Law, for as Paul states in Galatians 3:21, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law."

But would you simply take note that in view, again...is the Covenant of Law. Which Covenant you deny, and in doing so teach absurd heresy that is obvious.

So pretty easy, even for the natural mind, to understand. See the Covenant of Law again spoken of here:


9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.



See it? This is referring to the Covenant of Law, and the fact that they, Israel...did not keep it, which made it necessary that the Law...be changed.

Now see the Covenant which God promised to replace it with:


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


This is a Covenant they (Israel) will be able to keep because God will write His laws on their hearts, just as this Promise...


Ezekiel 36:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.



...also states.

You are the Judaizer Paul speaks about in his Epistles, my friend, and your gospel is the Law. You need to understand that you are laying again foundational principles, not that which is perfect/complete, which Christ has fulfilled from the Law and the Prophets.


Continued...
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 11:19 am

Quote :
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.                                          
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, And shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.                                                                                                               
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
(They taught the Law and added to it, but didn’t keep it.)

Neither do you. You teach men must keep the Law to be saved when no man was able to keep the Law.

You need to understand that Christ was made under the Law, hence He ministered within the framework of the Law because that was the revelation provided to men at that point. You have completely ignored the simple Biblical Truth that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to men during the Age of Law or before:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



The Mystery was kept secret since the World began.


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)


3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



It is now revealed by the Spirit. It was not made known to the sons of men.

It was a Mystery, Ron.


8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:



Christ is the Hidden Wisdom of God:


1 Corinthians 1:23-24
King James Version (KJV)

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.



1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:



The Spirit of God glorifies Christ for the purpose of salvation, yet you glorify Man and his ability, despite the fact man can do nothing but sin.


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



That is why you merge the two Covenants and cannot properly understand...either. Because you do not know the Gospel of Christ and have not obeyed the Gospel.

You kid yourself thinking you are keeping the Word of God, because you are rejecting both the Word and...the WORD.


Continued...
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 11:49 am

Quote :
When they crucified Jesus on the cross it was because of “The Word”!

Not really: they crucified Him because it was...His Plan.


John 18:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?



Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)


4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



John 12:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.



Secondly your understanding of what "the Word" is lacks the ability to distinguish between the WORD, The Word, and the Incarnation.


Quote :
What was on the cross?

Not what, but Who.


Quote :
The Eternal Word of God that can’t be killed,


No, Ron, God manifest in flesh was on the Cross dying for sinners like you and I. This is just basic to Christian Doctrine, that Jesus Christ died for our sins. It has nothing to do with the Word, or the WORD, it has to do with God manifest in flesh for the express purpose of redeeming...

...those who were under Law.

What is sad is that you have sought to be under the Law, and have willingly rejected the Sacrifice of Christ.


Galatians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



Your works won't save you, nor will they keep you saved, we are kept by the power of God.


Quote :
only the flesh dies, as our flesh must be put to death daily! They crucified Him for the Word He spoke.

What twaddle.

First, what persecution have you ever gone through? What sacrifices do you make?

Scripture doesn't teach that Christ and men died on the Cross to redeem men, but Christ only:


John 16:30-32

King James Version (KJV)

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.



Only the Father was with Him on the Cross. Salvation is not attributed to any Sacrifice but that of Christ. Not Christ and Ron.

Secondly, again, Christ was crucified because He chose to be:


John 10:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father
.


Lastly, do you even see the difference between the "Word" He spoke and the WORD? The WORD being the Eternal Son of God, God Himself, the Creator?


Quote :
He suffered ALL THINGS as a man (Flesh) to show that we can OVERCOME sin by obedience to His Word,


No Ron, He suffered because men could not, and cannot overcome sin.

That is why He came.


Quote :
so that we too could pass from death to Life Eternal.

We do not pass from death because we are obedient to His Word, we pass from death to life by believing on Him and being reconciled:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.




John 3:9-16
King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Nicodemus asks how men can be born again, and Christ makes it clear: The Son of Man must be lifted up...

...so that men might believe on Him.


That is how we pass from death to life. Your religion cannot accomplish that, because it rejects Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice.

That is the wilful sin of HEbrews 10:26-29.


Continued...
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 12:32 pm

Quote :
The Law has not been done away with or that it no longer exists,

The Covenant of Law, which was established between God and Israel (not the world)...has been abrogated by the New Covenant.

Denial of this very basic truth of God's Word only shows the depths which you will sink to to teach your false gospel.


Quote :
because the Law is the Spirit of God!

You are in luck because God will forgive you even this.

The only thing He cannot forgive is your rejection of Christ:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



Notice the contrast is between those who rejected "Moses' Law?" The First Covenant, the Covenant of Law?

Those who reject Christ the Son of the Living God, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the Spirit of Grace (Who is the Comforter)...

...will be punished more severely than they.

This is what you are doing, Ron.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;





Quote :
It’s not a “Covenant of Law”, it‘s a covenant between God and His people!


It is a Covenant, and it was established between God and Israel...not the world.

The New Covenant is open to all nations, all families of the earth, Ron.

 
Quote :
It’s a “Covenant of Love between God and His people”!

No, Ron, it was an if/then Covenant: if you obey, then I will...

Not so with the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



There is a big difference between God saying Iwll and Ron saying I will.

One will have eternal value and the other is as filthy rags.


Quote :
Why?                                  
“If you love me, you will obey me”, Law = Righteousness or right with God.


1 John 4:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.



As I said, even the natural mind should be able to understand this. Give it a try.


Quote :
Why? Because God’s Word is eternal.


No, Ron, the WORD is Eternal, the Word was given through men.


Quote :
Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (“WE” ESTABLISH THE LAW).  It’s something “WE” choose to uphold.                                                                                                             
 G2476    “ESTABLISH”                                                                                          
A prolonged form of a primary word (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).
Where is God’s Law established, Old and New? In our heart!


We establish the Law because of the indwelling Spirit of God:


Ezekiel 36:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, my friend, and it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ which saves:



1 Peter 1:22-25
King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.



Again, it is not the will of man by which we are saved, it is the will of God.

You can't teach salvation by works and the Word of God, the Gospel.

Choose this day Whom ye shall serve, my friend. God...or Ron.



Quote :
Rom 2:15  Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)       

This is speaking about Gentiles contrasted with Jews under the Law.
                                     
Read your Bible, ROn, stop proof-texting your false religion.

                                                           

Quote :
Heart = that which is producing good (Matt 12:35) The Law (Good), which is to be “morally right”, Faith which is “Moral Conviction”, or evil which is disobedience.

You erroneously teach that men can be "good" by keeping the Law.

Have you ever actually read the Bible?


Genesis 6
King James Version (KJV)

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



Romans 3:10-18
King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.



Romans 3:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.



The Good News is this, Ron, despite the fact that you cannot keep the Law, and cannot be justified by your works, God has a Plan for your life. This Plan was promised long ago:


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Obey the Gospel, Ron.




Quote :
Was His Spirit within and upon men in the old? YES! (There’s only one Spirit)


You reject the Word of Christ:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



You deny His Word, and have convinced yourself your are keeping the Law.

The Spirit was not eternally indwelling men prior to His being sent for that specific ministry:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



So continue to teach your heretical works-based gospel, or...repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


God bless.
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ron_evartt
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 3:26 pm

Understanding Hebrews 6:1

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

It's explained in a language you might understand in the Amplified Version:

Heb 6:1  THEREFORE LET us go on and get past the elementary stage in the teachings and doctrine of Christ (the Messiah), advancing steadily toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity. Let us not again be laying the foundation of repentance and abandonment of dead works (dead formalism) and of the faith [by which you turned] to God


What is this saying? 


The same as: 


Heb 5:12  For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 

Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 

Heb 6:1


1) Grow up in the teaching of your doctrine. Don't stay a baby.
2) Advancing from the "milk stage" to the "meat stage"
3) Don't do "Dead Works"! Things that do not further God's Kingdom. Man's ways.
4) You shouldn't have to start your "Faith Walk" all over again. Faith being "moral conviction", doing what is right. 


This verse is all about staying with God and not reverting back to your "dead works", or your infancy. It's all about maturing in the Word, ...toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity...
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 4:15 pm

I never said that we are under the law. We are to "Establish" the Law He wrote on our hearts, and that translates perfectly as "Working out your salvation with fear and trembling"! 

What is in our heart? God's Spirit.
What is written on our heart? The Law.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (The Word) hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 


It's God's Word and not mine that clearly teach the law has not been done away with.
Did Jesus obey the Law of God? Yes!
Are we to walk in His image? Yes!

You don't understand that the "House of Israel" is the body of "Believers" in Yeshua and His finished work. His work is finished, but we have work to do. Not dead works, but Yeshua's "Instructions in Righteousness", the Law written on our hearts. You aren't denying my words, you're denying His by only choosing to believe and accept certain verses you deem important, but taken out of context. You also accused me of things I've never said, but rather twisted them. No one could enter the Kingdom of God without what Yeshua did (Death, burial, and resurrection).    
We are grafted in to one Tree of Life! There is no more Jew or Greek. 
You don't understand Paul's writings, and your doctrine is around 200 years old. 

This ends now. You will only continue to support the doctrines of men, and refuse to listen and study the scriptures (with multiple scriptures supporting them) presented. You have not answered the scriptures presented. And if you did you would only distort and say, that what they say isn't what they really mean. So there's no point in us going further. 

Has your doctrine really changed men's hearts? We now have over 41,000 different Christian denominations in the world, and Christianity (Especially here in the USA) is dying, as in many other places. The world sees Christians as total hypocrites, which with your doctrines you are. They don't see the works of Jesus in the people, because your false teachings promote this. Does your life reflect that of Jesus? Did not Jesus say, "Let your Light shine so they may see your good works"?
You're battling for your religion, I'm fighting the good fight of faith! Yes, that's something we do!
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ron_evartt
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sat May 19, 2018 7:59 pm

Notice anything here?


Num 11:25  And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
 
Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the
house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The same Spirit they had was promised to the Gentiles!
The only way any man from any point in time could understand and have a relationship with "The Lord" is through His Spirit. Did it ever say anywhere the men of old didn't have God's Spirit? No, quite the contrary. Before Jesus came in the flesh the Spirit of God was upon and in the men of faith (The few chosen). When Jesus was on earth we had "God with us". After His ascension the Spirit of God came on the Gentiles and Jews who believed and trusted in the finished works of Jesus. The Spirit has always been every man's connection to God the Father, who received Him as there God. God doesn't change and He is not different now than what He was from the beginning. God MUST judge all in the same way, or He is impartial and a respecter of some, but not others. The Law is to expose sin, and show your love to Him out of obedience. The Law was not about salvation, but a way to show your love to Him. Do you really think God, "who is all knowing", and after the fall of man, would than set up man for failure? NO! The Law is given to bring us into a closer relationship to God. God has always had Grace and Mercy, and forgiven those who would repent. Not send them to eternal damnation because they couldn't keep the Law. Your hatred for the Law is a hatred for God, because God's Law is perfect, just, eternal, His Word is God, and His Word was in the beginning with God.  


Exo 31:3  And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, (A separation between wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and workmanship)


Exo 35:31  And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; 


Num 24:2  And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him




Maybe this will sound familiar. Passing along the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands.


Num 27:18  And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; 
Num 27:23  And he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses. 



1Sa 16:13  Then Samuel took the horn of the oil (Holy Spirit), and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. 


Concerning Jesus and how the Spirit came to Him. Same as David...


Mat_3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him


Mat_12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 



Mar_1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him


1Pe_4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 


1Sa 19:23  And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 


Neh 9:30  Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands. 


Job 27:3  All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils
Job 27:4  My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. 


Job 32:8  But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


Psa 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me


Pro 15:4  A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit. 


Pro 29:23  A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit. 


Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 


Isa 42:1  Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 


Isa 48:16  Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 


Isa 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. 


Isa 59:21  As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. 


Eze 11:24  Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me. 

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye
shall keep my judgments, and do them. 
Eze 36:28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 


Eze 37:14  And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. 


Dan 6:3  Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm. 


Zec 7:12  Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. 
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 1:51 am

This is directly and absolutely is referring to the LAW! From the mouth of God the Son! (Matt 23:1-3)
Please feel free to explain this.
Mat 23:1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (The reading of the Law)
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not you after their works (Breakers of the Law): for they say, and do not.


This was the reading of the Law of God (Torah). The Law He calls perfect, just, and eternal.



You can’t separate Faith and Works, they’re a team that only work when they’re joined together!
OR:
Jas 2:19 Thou believes that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (Re: Faith and Works)
G2041    “WORKS”
From (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labor, work.


These are all the Word of God that you deny. These are done out of love for God, and we are told by God’s Word to do them!


Greatest commandment: Mar 12:30 And thou shall love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


With everything that makes up who you are (Body, soul, and Spirit) you acknowledge God.
Mind/soul – Your thoughts, Heart – Good works, Strength –  Spirit Power


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
 
Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
 
1Jn 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord
Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
 
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
 
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
 
Act 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.
 
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
 
1Ti 2:10 But (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works.
 
1Ti 5:10  Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
 
1Ti 6:18  That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute,
willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
 
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 
Tit 2:7  In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing un-corruptness, gravity, sincerity,
 
 
Tit 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
 
Tit 3:8  This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
 
Tit 3:14  And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Heb 10:24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
 
Jas 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.                                                   Jas 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
 
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 
G1344    “JUSTIFIED”  (Not saved, …to render just or innocent…)
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.




Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?                                                                                                                                              
Jas 2:22  See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 
Jas 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the
messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
Jas 3:13  Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
 
1Pe 2:12  Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 
Rev 2:2  I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
 
Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 
Rev 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
 
 
Rev 2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwells, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holds fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
 
Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
 
Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searches the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 
Rev 2:26  And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 
Rev 3:1  And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things says he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou lives, and art dead.
 
Rev 3:2  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
 
Rev 3:8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
 
Rev 3:15  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
 
Rev_14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
 
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.                                                                                                                     
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Our works = what man believes to be good, His Works = What God knows to be Good and Perfect!
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Darrell Conner
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 9:12 am

@ron_evartt wrote:
Understanding Hebrews 6:1

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

It's explained in a language you might understand in the Amplified Version:

Heb 6:1  THEREFORE LET us go on and get past the elementary stage in the teachings and doctrine of Christ (the Messiah), advancing steadily toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity. Let us not again be laying the foundation of repentance and abandonment of dead works (dead formalism) and of the faith [by which you turned] to God



First, to understand what this is saying, you don't refer to the English Language...you refer to the Greek.

Secondly, that you consistently have to add to the Word of God to make your point, rather than let the Word of God speak for itself...shows your novice ability.

Third, that you try to use the words of men again shows the natural quality of your commentary.

Fourth, you fail to see the bias of this translation, but then, most natural men view the words translated "full age" as "maturity shows they, and you, have no ability to see this in context.

Let me help you with that:


Hebrews 5:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.



The word nōthros means lazy. It is translated slothful in Hebrews 6:12, and the point is those being rebuked are lazy...to hear. We see that in you, Ron, because you have been shown irrefutable Scripture that makes the point that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed during Christ's ministry, yet you teach the Law, which Christ ministered under...as gospel.


Hebrews 5:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.



Now that we have links to the original language, rather than a biased work of men, we see that those being rebuked have a problem: it is hard for the Writer to tell them about Christ because they are dull of hearing.

The rebuke gets worse, and I might remind you that this is written by a Jew to his brethren...Jews:


12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.



The word archē, which means "beginning," basically, will be seen again...

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles G746 of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

...where they (those rebuked) are exhorted to progress from the beginning principles taught in the Hebrew Scriptures (which is all they had at that time, the New Testament, though circulated among the churches, was not an assembled Canon).

Now, here is the point the Writer makes which you have missed: those rebuked are ignorant of the First Principles of the Word of God in regards to the Doctrine of Christ.

And you think they are to "grow up" in the state they are. The fact is...they need to be converted.

Here is what they are ignorant of because of their laziness:


12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.



So we see they are ignorant of the beginning principles of the Word of God in regards to the Doctrine of Christ. They have been associated with the Church long enough that they should be teaching that which the Writer desires to teach them concerning our Great High Priest, of Who you say...nothing has changed. Except something has changed, the Priest men are to go to for remission of sins. No longer, as the Law required...could they go to the Levitical Priesthood.

They are indeed babies, infantile in their understanding. And while new converts are babes in Christ, these men are not only ignorant of Christ as portrayed in Prophecy, they are ignorant of that which is Complete.


13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.



Because you think you can interpret God's Word through the English language, I'm guessing you are giving this a modern English meaning, rather than what the hearers of this Epistle would have undertood in the First Century, which is "without experience," basically, and I think untried might be a good translation.

So understand: those that use milk are without experience in the Word of righteousness. And that fits the context perfectly, because those rebuked are ignorant of what was taught about Christ in the Hebrew Scriptures, making it hard for the Writer to teach them about the Priesthood of Christ.

Yet you consider them Christians. This because your damnable demon doctrine demands it. You have to deny the Sovereignty of God and Eternal Security which Christ taught. You teach men can save...themselves.

Now lets look at "full age:"


14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



Note that those who are of "full age," or, complete...have by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. They are not lazy, they are not infantile in their understanding, and they are not without experience in the Word of Righteousness, which is the Gospel.

See the contrast? WHich of these two do you think are saved, ROn? Those hwo understand, not only the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ, but that which is complete concerning him, or those who are ignorant of Christ?

The Greek here, Telios, is also seen here:


Hebrews 9:8-12
King James Version (KJV)

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



The time would fail me to try to explain this passage, seeing you are dull of hearing, but in short, we see...


1. The Holu Ghost made it clear that the way into the Holiest of All (Heaven) was not ade manifest during the Age of Law, while the physical temple was still standing;

2. The physical Temple was a parable, a representation of the Holiest of All (which itself signifies man's entrance to God) for the time then present, or in other words, during that time it was in use;

3. The service of the Levitical Priesthood was...earthly, and applied to the physical, not the Eternal;

4. Christ has come as the High Priest of the good things to come (which were pictured in the Law) by a greater Temple, that is...His flesh;

5. Christ has, through His Death (not Ron dying daily)...entered into the Holy Place, Heaven...

...having obtained Eternal Redemption (for us).

And He has redeemed the sins of the Old Testament Saint through His Death:


Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



This had to be done, not because of man's will, but by God's will...that the promise of Eternal Inheritance might be fulfilled and bestowed to men.

Now let's go back to our text:


Hebrews 5:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



Those rebuked are not Christians, they are lazy, ignorant Jews who need to be taught the Hebrew Scriptures again. They are contrasted with born again Christians who are skillful in the Word of Righteousness, who do not need milk like these of infantile understanding in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Now we go on to Perfection:


Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.




Those rebuked are exhorted to go on unto that which those who perfect have already gone on unto, perfection. Those in Hebrews 5:14 are perfect, not mature. You do not consider someone ignorant of Christ to be a believer, but one in need of turning to Christ, rather than what they are doing...

...laying again the foundational principles of the Old Testament, and of the Law.

That is why they are forbidden to "lay again" the foundation.

But you are doing just that, hence my statement in the previous post.




Quote :
What is this saying? 


It is telling them to be converted.

I know you can't see that, because the doctrines of men you teach blinds you to the Word of God.



Quote :
The same as: 


Heb 5:12  For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 

Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 


Not at all. This rebukes them for their ignorance due to their sloth, whereas 6:1-2 tells them what they need to do...to go on to the completion being taught of Christ, which is contrasted to the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ as found in the Hebrew Scriptures.



Quote :
Heb 6:1


1) Grow up in the teaching of your doctrine. Don't stay a baby.
2) Advancing from the "milk stage" to the "meat stage"
3) Don't do "Dead Works"! Things that do not further God's Kingdom. Man's ways.
4) You shouldn't have to start your "Faith Walk" all over again. Faith being "moral conviction", doing what is right. 


I would agree with the first point, because he is telling them, as Jews...to leave that which they (as a nation) were given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I would agree with the second point as well, as long as it is understood that the two stages are Israel under the Law and Israel...in Christ. But all who are L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) teach this as believers "growing up," rather than understanding Hebrews as a whole. I have tried to help you understand Perfection but you refuse to address those things which destroy the demon doctrine you hold to, teaching men they must save themselves through works, thus making yourself guilty of the charges of Hebrews 10:29.

Those who are born again believers have had our consciences cleansed of dead works. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has foreordained we should walk in. You are guilty of doing that which is contrary to the Gospel of Christ, thus are an enemy of Christ and the Gospel.

Point 4 is absurd. One doesn't start over, nor is that in the text. In view is starting to begin with.

It always amazes me that the L.O.S.T. think someone ignorant even of that which the Old Testament taught of Christ could be saved. 


Quote :
This verse is all about staying with God and not reverting back to your "dead works", or your infancy.

Not at all. If you read the text, instead of your commentaries of men, you would see that they are forbidden to lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works.

And that is precisely what you are teaching, though I am sure you cannot recognize this either. You are teaching that men should "Stop doing dead works!" So you are teaching repentance from dead works on a foundational level.

Instead of the conscience cleansed from dead works to serve the Living God:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.





Quote :
It's all about maturing in the Word, ...toward the completeness and perfection that belong to spiritual maturity...


And that is the doctrine of men. And that is the inevitable result of people who think if they find the right translation they can proof text their doctrine.

Just not going to happen. Only the Spirit of God can teach you the Word of God, Ron, as He has always done among men. If you will listen to Him He will help you to stop merging the Two Covenants and teaching false religion.


God bless.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 9:48 am

@ron_evartt wrote:
This is directly and absolutely is referring to the LAW! From the mouth of God the Son! (Matt 23:1-3)
Please feel free to explain this.
Mat 23:1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (The reading of the Law)
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not you after their works (Breakers of the Law): for they say, and do not.


I have already explained it to you, but you will not listen.

Once again, Christ was made under the Law, meaning He came while the Law was still in effect. He kept the Law perfectly, and was the only One capable of doing so.

Now, here is why your doctrine is heresy: you do not understand that the Lord ministered within the framework of revelation provided to men at that time. He was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul makes that clear, but, you reject the teachings of Scripture in favor of the religious doctrines of men, teaching works-based salvation instead of the Gospel.

Why haven't you responded to the Scripture concerning the Mystery of Christ, Ron?

Scared? Fearful that you may not maintain control of the false salvation you teach?



Quote :
This was the reading of the Law of God (Torah). The Law He calls perfect, just, and eternal.

And no man kept it.


Hebrews 8:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



You deny one of the most basic teachings of Scripture, that Christ, through His Death, established the New Covenant and made obsolete the Covenant of Law.


12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.




Quote :
You can’t separate Faith and Works, they’re a team that only work when they’re joined together!
OR:
Jas 2:19 Thou believes that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (Re: Faith and Works)
G2041    “WORKS”
From (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labor, work.

I do not separate faith and works, I just teach that our works as believers are foreordained by God...and that they are good works.

You lay again the foundational doctrine of repentance from dead works.

And again you add to the Word of God. If you would stop doing that perhaps the SPirit could teach what they are actually saying.



Quote :
These are all the Word of God that you deny.

It's funny, because you make statements completely unbiblical, I show you why they are absurd, yet I am the one denying the Word of God. I guess if you ever responded to any of the points made to you then you might be able to say this.

As explained in great detail to you previously, I acknowledge Abraham was justified by faith and works, but, the distinction drawn between Abraham's justification based on what he did, and being freely justified by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus is lost on you.

Because you merge the Old and the New.


Quote :
These are done out of love for God, and we are told by God’s Word to do them!

I doubt seriously anyone reading your rantings would see the love of God, or a concern for those who are lost.

Maybe a few less !!!! and a little more Scripture.



Quote :
Greatest commandment: Mar 12:30 And thou shall love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

So who among men was doing this...and did not need to be redeemed by Christ?



Quote :
With everything that makes up who you are (Body, soul, and Spirit) you acknowledge God.
Mind/soul – Your thoughts, Heart – Good works, Strength –  Spirit Power

But Ron...you deny Christ at every turn.

Good works are strength? Spirit power?



Quote :
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And you don't do this, Ron. You deny Christ's teaching and teach that the Spirit had already been given. That is why you are ignorant of Christ's teachings. You cannot understand His Word.

 

Quote :
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You deny this teaching: you teach men were already indwelt by GOd in the Old Testament.

 

Quote :
Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You do not do this.



Quote :
 
1Jn 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You have to be born of God to do this.

Ron's commandments are grievous...to God.

 

Quote :
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord
Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

You do not do this, you reject those who reject your doctrines of men.

You have no compassion, you reject the Gospel of Christ, and should fear the kind of difference you are making.

 

Quote :
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Is shouting at people and telling them they must do works to be saved...what you call letting your light shine?

 

Quote :
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Again, those who are born again will have their works judged, but the penalty of sin has already been paid in Christ Jesus.

You deny this. You teach the Cross of Christ only pays for sins previously committed.


1 Corinthians 3:11-15
King James Version (KJV)

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




 

Quote :
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Again, Christ is ministering within the framework of the revelation provided men in that day, He is not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel.

You look at Abraham's works as what saved him on an eternal basis...not Christ.

You reject salvation in Christ and instead teach works-based salvation.

 

Quote :
Act 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.

And? Is it surprising that people do good works?

 

Quote :
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
 
1Ti 2:10 But (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works.
 
1Ti 5:10  Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
 
1Ti 6:18  That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute,
willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
 
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 
Tit 2:7  In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing un-corruptness, gravity, sincerity,
 
 
Tit 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
 
Tit 3:8  This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
 
Tit 3:14  And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Heb 10:24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
 
Jas 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.                                                   Jas 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
 
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 
G1344    “JUSTIFIED”  (Not saved, …to render just or innocent…)
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.




Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?                                                                                                                                              
Jas 2:22  See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 
Jas 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the
messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
Jas 3:13  Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
 
1Pe 2:12  Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 
Rev 2:2  I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
 
Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 
Rev 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
 
 
Rev 2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwells, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holds fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
 
Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
 
Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searches the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 
Rev 2:26  And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 
Rev 3:1  And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things says he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou lives, and art dead.
 
Rev 3:2  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
 
Rev 3:8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
 
Rev 3:15  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
 
Rev_14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
 
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.                                                                                                                     
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

All of these have one theme: works.

Thanks for proof-texting what you have denied, that you teach works-based salvation. You can't even be honest about your own teaching.



Quote :
Our works = what man believes to be good, His Works = What God knows to be Good and Perfect!

So why do you teach men must do works to be saved?

Rather than what Scripture teaches:


Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Now, how about dealing with the Mystery of Christ?

How about dealing with the fact that despite good works...no man was Eternally redeemed until Christ died, arose, and sent the Spirit?

We see that in one of your proof-texts...


Quote :
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


It was not until the Spirit of Truth was sent that men became the Tabernacle of God, because it was not until then that men were eternally indwelt by God.

How about dealing with that?


God bless.
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 10:01 am

@ron_evartt wrote:
Notice anything here?


Num 11:25  And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
 
Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the
house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The same Spirit they had was promised to the Gentiles!

Ron, you continue to deny the Word of Christ:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Do you see that the Spirit in view is the Comforter, and that He is not yet given?

Why do you blatantly reject the Word of Christ?

He teaches this here as well:




John 14:15-23
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



Notice that the disciples are not in Him? Notice that as of yet the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost has not come unto the disciples?

You will ignore this, I am sure, as you have throughout this entire discussion. But I advise you to stop denying the Word of Christ, and kidding yourself that you keep His Word.


You teach the filling of the Spirit is the same as the eternal indwelling, denying Christ's teaching:


John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



Will you continue to deny this basic truth?


Continued...

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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 10:10 am

@ron_evartt wrote:

The same Spirit they had was promised to the Gentiles!
The only way any man from any point in time could understand and have a relationship with "The Lord" is through His Spirit.

The same Spirit was promised to both Jew and Bentile, Ron, and netiher of them received what was only promise in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)




Quote :
Did it ever say anywhere the men of old didn't have God's Spirit?

Yes, Ron, lol:

John 14:15-23
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.




Quote :
No, quite the contrary.

Only in the Religion of Ron.

In the Word of Christ it is a basic teaching.


Continued...
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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 10:17 am

Quote :
Before Jesus came in the flesh the Spirit of God was upon and in the men of faith (The few chosen).

Not according to Christ:


John 14:15-23
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



You are not keeping the Word of Christ, which according to your religion proves you do not love Jesus Christ. It's already apparent you do not love His children, your tone makes that very clear.


1 John 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



Just as in Ephesians 2:8-10, we don't see Ron's religion taught, faith and works for salvation, we see faith in Christ as the means of overcoming.

Go back and read the Epistles to the seven Churches in Revelation and see that they are called to be...saved.


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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 10:27 am

Quote :

When Jesus was on earth we had "God with us".

And this was...new.

Prior to this men under Law had to approach through the Levitical Priest.

Yet you continue to teacht hat men already had God in the Old Testament:

Ron wrote:


Before Jesus came in the flesh the Spirit of God was upon and in the men of faith (The few chosen).


If you kept the words of Christ you would not teach this heresy.



Quote :

After His ascension the Spirit of God came on the Gentiles and Jews who believed and trusted in the finished works of Jesus.

And this was...new:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.




Quote :

The Spirit has always been every man's connection to God the Father, who received Him as there God.

Just not the case. In the Garden man had a direct physical relationship with God, and walked with Him.

That was lost, and all of Adam's descendants were separated from God. In the last dispensation prior to the Age of Grace men were under Law, and the means of relationship with God was through that Covenant.

And you...deny there was a Covenant of Law.

Honestly, ROn, have you ever actually read the Bible? Or just commentaries? What group are you in? Your doctrine is Christ rejecting and cult-like.


Quote :

God doesn't change and He is not different now than what He was from the beginning.

But how he ministers to men has changed, Ron. Remember pointing out that the Prophets preached repent or else?

Remember my answer?

Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


God is unchanging, but how He ministers to men is not. And the important thing for you to learn is in regards to His ministry through the Comforter, which began at Pentecost. We can place it at a time after Christ returned to Heaven, so why not get on board with the teaching of Christ and draw the obvious conclusion: the Spirit of Truth was sent at Pentecost not many days hence from His Ascension.



Quote :

God MUST judge all in the same way, or He is impartial and a respecter of some, but not others.

No, God does not judge all the same way: Some will have their sin judged on the Person of Christ on the Cross, while the rest will have their sins judged upon themselves.

Those are the two options Scripture teaches.


Continued...

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PostSubject: Re: The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace   Sun May 20, 2018 10:41 am

Quote :

The Law is to expose sin, and show your love to Him out of obedience.

Why not use a Biblical definition for why the Law was given, Ron?


Galatians 3:19-26
King James Version (KJV)

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



I went into great detail to explain to you that the Faith of Jesus Christ was not available to men prior to Christ coming. Note v.23 where he speaks of the time before faith came. This was while the Covenant of Law was in effect. Notice in the same verse that the faith was to be revealed...afterwards.

Notice in v.25 of the time when Faith came. It speaks of specific faith in Jesus Christ, Whose Name was not revealed to men until...He came.

And it was not until He arose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter that men began to place faith in Jesus CHrist. Not even the disciples believed in the Resurrection until after the Cross and Resurrection.

And notice that we are children of God through faith, not faith and works:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



Abraham was justified on a temporal basis but not eternally redeemed, for he died stil in need of being justified freely by the grace of God through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



So you can continue to preach works-based salvation, resting in the erroneous and tired doctrine of the Reformation, or...

...you can get in line with what Scripture teaches, and understand that Salvation is a gift, something works have never been able to accomplish.

Only the Blood of Christ can redeem men eternally, and forgive their sins on an eternal basis.

We go back to the original point I brought up, you merge the Old and the new, thereby detroying both, all the while making claims of keeping the commandments of God.

But you cannot do that if you do not keep Christ's Word.


Continued...
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The Law, Forgiveness of Sin, Faith and Grace
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